Methods to keep the Tornado running cool in traffic
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Thread: Methods to keep the Tornado running cool in traffic

  1. #1
    Senior Member Engenia's Avatar
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    Errol Kowald
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    Methods to keep the Tornado running cool in traffic

    I recently received a PM from Alex-S asking me what I thought could be done to reduce the propensity for his Tornado to boil when in traffic. I rolled out the standard responses :-
    • run it richer at idle. If it is rich enough it won't boil. I tried this in my garage once. It worked. I put it back to about 12:1 though. It is more likely to foul the plugs if excessively rich.
    • lower the fan cut-in temperature. That will slow the rise in temperature sooner, but not solve the problem.
    • cut every second wire from the fan protection mesh. That will increase the air flow a little.
    • switch it off at the traffic lights or in a traffic jam. That's a no-brainer, if you do it early enough.
    • stay away from heavy traffic! Anyone with a Tornado will be doing this anyway.
    • check that there are no air pockets in the cooling system. Very easy to get this wrong.
    • remove the thermostat during warmer weather, but make sure it is installed when the ambient temp is below 10 C or the ECU will never get out of the warm up phase and run it permanently rich.
    • make sure both fans are serviceable
    • clean the bugs out of the radiator fins
    • talk to Alex at Maniac Motors. He has an electric water pump that replaces the mechanical one. It is way more efficient. The thermostat can be permanently removed since the engine temperature can be controlled by switching the pump on & off.
    • check that your radiator is not restricted internally.


    But recently I thought of another - replace the oem fans with fans that provide more flow at higher pressures. I reasoned that twice the flow would result in a cooler exhaust stream because more air molecules are flowing past the radiator fins and conducting the heat away, (Is that a valid assumption?)

    The oem fans are 4 blade ducted. Ducting makes them more efficient, but if you look at a turbo-fan engine there are heaps of blades and it turns out that more blades allow higher pressures.
    Methods to keep the Tornado running cool in traffic-ge90-115b-engine-person-d34788_lg.jpg
    If you look at the model aircraft community you'll see fans they use in turbo-fan aircraft models. These generally have deeper blades and lots of them. Seven or more.
    Methods to keep the Tornado running cool in traffic-hobbyking.127.mm.blade.edf.unit.sku.0r003-00113-7b.jpg
    Looking into fan types, the highest pressure fans have vanes at their inlet or exhaust ports which reduce the air turbulence and improve flow efficiency.
    Methods to keep the Tornado running cool in traffic-fan.types.jpg
    There is a lot of room between the radiator and the oem fan base and some space between the fan and the mesh at the outlet. I wonder if a better fan design coupled to a more powerful motor would improve the situation?
    I can imagine a motor at the inside middle bottom driving two fans with a toothed belt, or maybe gears, with a crossed vane at the outlet in front of the mesh, or no mesh at all and more vanes to stop inquiring fingers getting at the impeller.

    I know that connecting the bottom 2/3 of the radiator to an exhaust fan solves the problem in the workshop, so maybe increasing the flow at the top 1/3 will improve the situation on the road?
    Methods to keep the Tornado running cool in traffic-201602202.static.cooling.system.jpg

    Any thoughts?
    Any ventilation experts among our esteemed colleagues?
    ron d likes this.
    hooroo, Errol www.engenia.com.au [139,200 km - and counting .....]

  2. #2
    Senior Member RobShed's Avatar
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    Nice Errol, you're a star !

    Has waterless coolant in a sealed system been discussed ?

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    Senior Member StingerWolf's Avatar
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    Hello Errol,

    I'm the traffic King of germany

    Alex has mounted the electric waterpump in my Tornado (I have a tuned TNT 1130 engine in it. Its producing much more heat so I had to solve the problem). The electric Waterpump upgrade is better than the oem pump but not the final solution. For this you need 2 extra vents under the radiator! Only this combination will change the game.
    I can ride much much longer in traffic without overheating the engine. If its really hot outside, too it still can overheat BUT the big difference here is when the watertemperature reaches 113°C and I stop the engine the waterpump and the vents are still working and because of that the temp goes from 113°C to 75°C in under 2 minutes!!! after that it will take a long time to reach the 113°C again.

    I have the 2 additional fans in my second Tornado (standard 1130) mounted, too. This bike don't has the electric waterpump mounted and the 2 vents alone don't make a big difference!

    The system (epump and +2vents) is working so efficient that if I ride on the german autobahn with highspeed and the waterpump and the 2 additional vents are working with full power the engine will gets to cool! (65°C) this is also not good and I only tested it for a very short time to get much experience as possible. I don't have to change temp settings on the waterpump device all the time its working automaticly (temp controlled) but if I want I can change the settings like I want. The vents can be controlled by the waterpump electronic (temp control) if wanted, but I have decided to control them with 2 switches (1x left and 1x right side) I wanted all possible options to find the best settings.

    With the 2 additional vents mounted there is only 2-3cm space between them and the mudguard if I sit on the bike. It seems not much but I have absolutely no problems on the ride so far at any speed or road condition. I always ride alone, so I have no experience with anyone on the backseat, but it should be no problem, too. If I want to get 100% sure I can put out the vents within 5-10 minutes only!!

    Plan for this year is to mount a smaller waterpump control unit (in the tail piece where the backlight is there should be enough space). The one Alex used for mine is designed for cars so it is big but has the most control options. I prefered this to find the best settings ect. for the test period. Its looking like a navigation system at the moment I know not good but it is working fine so far.



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    Last edited by StingerWolf; 05-10-2018 at 09:05 AM.

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    Senior Member StingerWolf's Avatar
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    Btw there is a guy here in germany who put one vent on the top of the radiator (under the backseat if I remember right) but he has to change the whole rear section to get this work. It seemed that this one vent is enough for cooling the bike he didnt has the oem vents mounted anymore. It never was an option for me and I dont have any info if its working properly

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    Senior Member Engenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StingerWolf View Post
    I have the 2 additional fans in my second Tornado (standard 1130) mounted, too. This bike don't has the electric waterpump mounted and the 2 vents alone don't make a big difference!
    My idea of increasing the air flow in the standard fan assisted region would be very similar to your system of adding two extra fans to the bottom of the radiator. From your experience it looks like my idea wouldn't make much difference, probably because at idle, the mechanical water pump isn't moving enough coolant through the radiator to reduce the overall temperature.

    SO.....
    If you must idle the Tornado in traffic, the solution to the overheating problem, your solution, is to replace the mechanical water pump with an electric one, which keeps the coolant flowing at idle, and increase the airflow either with two extra fans, or replacing the oem fans with more powerful ones.

    (I really like the electric pump's ability to keep cooling the engine when it is not running.)
    hooroo, Errol www.engenia.com.au [139,200 km - and counting .....]

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    Senior Member Engenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobShed View Post
    Has waterless coolant in a sealed system been discussed ?
    It has been discussed elsewhere Rob, but it's not the definitive answer as far as I can tell.
    hooroo, Errol www.engenia.com.au [139,200 km - and counting .....]

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    Senior Member StingerWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engenia View Post
    My idea of increasing the air flow in the standard fan assisted region would be very similar to your system of adding two extra fans to the bottom of the radiator. From your experience it looks like my idea wouldn't make much difference, probably because at idle, the mechanical water pump isn't moving enough coolant through the radiator to reduce the overall temperature.
    That is correct! I

    Quote Originally Posted by Engenia View Post
    SO.....
    If you must idle the Tornado in traffic, the solution to the overheating problem, your solution, is to replace the mechanical water pump with an electric one, which keeps the coolant flowing at idle, and increase the airflow either with two extra fans, or replacing the oem fans with more powerful ones.

    (I really like the electric pump's ability to keep cooling the engine when it is not running.)
    Yes, for much better cooling in Traffic first step is the e-pump. And replacing the oem fans isnt so easy because of the space in this area it looks more than it really is. I also thought about mini turbines from a mini jet (no joke ) but this brings other problems with it and the Budget......
    The 2 extra fans cost 106 Euro so this was the fastest, safest and a cheap way

    The e-pump is working 3min. after the engine is shut down that is a nice extra.


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    Senior Member RobShed's Avatar
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    Waterless coolant. Extra fans on the rad. Better std fans clearing more airflow (CFM). A tandem, shrouded in-line array to have push/pull or 'draw'. Electric water pump. All great ideas.

    The bike's fine on the racetrack or open road or even moderate traffic, just gridlock on hot days can cause overheating.

    From a thermal conductivity perspective, the rad is clearly where the heat massively stalls. Yes, an electric water pump would be useful to create more coolant flow at idle or low rpm.

    Al has 3 X the thermal resistance of Cu OR Cu has 3X the thermal conductivity of Cu

    A Cu rad is the obvious answer ..
    Last edited by RobShed; 05-11-2018 at 06:35 AM.

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    Senior Member Engenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobShed View Post
    A Cu rad is the obvious answer ..
    I think it would be better than aluminium, but the problem with replacing the radiator is finding one, or making one, to replace it with. If it were straight it would be easy. Being curved it is hard. I haven't heard of any radiator specialist attempting it, but I'd hazard a guess that they would rather make one out of copper than aluminium.

    So, we do what we can to improve the situation if the situation is one we often find ourselves in, and the lowest hanging fruit is the water pump, to increase the flow at idle. The oem pump moves 13 litres / min at 5000 rpm, and bugger-all at idle. Alex's electric water pump, a Davies Craig EBP15 can move 15 litres / minute at any engine rev, even zero. If you switch it off, it acts like a thermostat, so the mechanical one can be removed to increase the flow even further. They are cheap compared with a redesigned & fabricated radiator. Once you have flow at idle, the next issue is conducting the heat away faster, and that can be done with faster fans (& hence higher volume) or more of them (& hence higher volume). SPAL do make three fans that use the same impeller but increasingly powerful motors. The fastest may be faster than the oem fan. I haven't tested it.

    So I agree, Rob, in a perfect world the radiator should be copper, but it's hard to do, and if your water pump isn't pumping, a 100 litre radiator made of silver would make no difference. That would be the ultimate Tornado bling though don't you think?

    (BTW. The thermal conductivity of aluminium is 201 W/m/K, copper is 385, silver is 419)
    RobShed, DivingDog and ron d like this.
    hooroo, Errol www.engenia.com.au [139,200 km - and counting .....]

  11. #10
    Senior Member StingerWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Engenia View Post
    I think it would be better than aluminium, but the problem with replacing the radiator is finding one, or making one, to replace it with. If it were straight it would be easy. Being curved it is hard.....
    This is the main problem! If the radiator wouldnt be curved we could made a thicker one this should be enough to bring much coolness to the engine
    To make a upgraded (thicker) curved radiator is also no problem but you will need too much money nobody will spend.


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