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can't get neutral dragging clutch hot stall
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#21 ·
Erratic idle - Injectors

Yesterday my bike was running beautifully. I decided I need more weight to stop the front wheel lifting when I nail it, so I rode to Snowtown for an Indian takeaway. I returned via the short cut over 27 km of dirt road, some of which was badly pot-holed. Not only did one of my rear indicators snap off from the jarring, the stalling returned! The engine conked-out three times when I slowed for intersections and nasty bits. The rough road is probably not the cause but the fact I dropped the idle speed yesterday. The idle has been very variable, which combined with a tall first gear, can be a nuisance when I need to ride slowly. After Trevor's hint on this thread in his 19/11 post I read Engenia's page and some threads about the injectors. I can see I have been trying to reinvent the wheel as a late-comer to this forum. I'm thinking I might bite the bullet and get a set of the Denso injectors. First I must unravel all the threads and work-out what is required. Anyone know about these? 30lb 315cc Benelli TNT 1130 12-Hole Fuel Injector Upgrade Brand New | eBay
 
#22 ·
If the injectors improve low rpm throttle response count me in for a set! Even after the dyno run the trek still hesitates when snapped on hard under 4K, and runs rough around 3-4K, not to mention is still bloody thirsty, only 230K from last tank, taking 18L to fill.

Idle has always been good on mine, if somewhat high at 1600rpm, though the other day it decided to idle just fine at 1000rpm for awhile, then went back to it's normal 1600. I had pretty much just decided it has no manners around town and is a all or nothing kind of ride. :p
 
#23 ·
Whoa, 7.8L/100km sounds excessive! Perhaps I can't compare because most of my riding is country cruising at legal speeds but I average 6.5L/100km and lately have been using under 6L/100km. I have exceeded 7 only when the tank has included a traffic jamb or some running on the stand. If I snap the throttle wide open from idle in first gear we depart like a scalded cat and the front wheel gets very light. It sounds like either your bike has a fault or your map is not right. Mine normally idles at around 1400 rpm and lately has not stalled except when I dropped the idle to 1200 rpm. Since then I put it back to 1350-ish and it has not stalled again. While low speed running on the road seems pretty good the idle is rich, smelly and the speed is erratic. The posts in this forum on the subject make me optimistic that a change of injectors could fix that. I would rather avoid the expense and inconvenience of a dyno remap. The latest thread at http://www.benelliforum.com/forum/tnt/24577-swapping-these-new-injectors.html states that Maniac Motors can supply better injectors and a suitable map but I did not find anything pertinent on the Maniac Motors website. However the 12 hole injector option from Dimar Motor Sports interests me because it stands to reason that these should give better atomised fuel that will burn faster and more completely. I will continue to procrastinate in the hope I learn more before committing funds.
 
#25 ·
It looks like under AU$500 including delivery for the Tills injectors and MM map. Alex reckons I can get away without a dyno tune if I don't insist in wringing-out the very last kilowatt. That makes it an economical solution. I am teetering on the edge of a commitment. Can anyone report the difference it has made to the fuel consumption or tank range on a TREK or TNT?
 
#26 ·
Could not make TREK misbehave on a 44 degree day.

I did not commit to different injectors because Alex (Maniac Motors) explained that the Tills injectors and MM map will certainly make the bike run smoother but I can not expect more fuel range than I am getting now because the engine design needs a richish mixture for cooling and smooth running. I persevered adjusting my map at low revs and small throttle openings using the Lambda feedback as a guide. The engine now idles well and has not stalled for weeks. Yesterday I took the opportunity to try and make it misbehave when the ambient air temperature was 44 degrees Celsius. After the 6km ride into town at highway speed, to get it to normal operating temperature, I let it idle, which it did without faltering. Then I plodded around as slow as it would go. It behaved almost perfectly. The only criticism I could make is slight misfiring with the throttle just off the stop when decelerating or running down-hill. However under load it did not miss a beat. It seemed like a different bike to the one that played-up horribly in a traffic jamb on Westgate Bridge during warm weather last year. Perhaps the low speed gremlins are beaten. It still runs rich at high revs and wide throttle. While that has not been a problem for me, I intend to fit a gutted cat pipe Trevor68 sold me and load a map with Trevor68's leaner top half spliced to my bottom half, to see how that works. I will tackle it once the weather becomes more conducive to work in the garage.
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
Redbaron57 said:
I did not commit to different injectors because Alex (Maniac Motors) explained that the Tills injectors and MM map will certainly make the bike run smoother but I can not expect more fuel range than I am getting now because the engine design needs a richish mixture for cooling and smooth running. I persevered adjusting my map at low revs and small throttle openings using the Lambda feedback as a guide. The engine now idles well and has not stalled for weeks. Yesterday I took the opportunity to try and make it misbehave when the ambient air temperature was 44 degrees Celsius. After the 6km ride into town at highway speed, to get it to normal operating temperature, I let it idle, which it did without faltering. Then I plodded around as slow as it would go. It behaved almost perfectly. The only criticism I could make is slight misfiring with the throttle just off the stop when decelerating or running down-hill. However under load it did not miss a beat. It seemed like a different bike to the one that played-up horribly in a traffic jamb on Westgate Bridge during warm weather last year. Perhaps the low speed gremlins are beaten. It still runs rich at high revs and wide throttle. While that has not been a problem for me, I intend to fit a gutted cat pipe Trevor68 sold me and load a map with Trevor68's leaner top half spliced to my bottom half, to see how that works. I will tackle it once the weather becomes more conducive to work in the garage.
Click to expand...
Hi, I have been trying to get my Trek going using a lot of advice from the forum. I installed the twelve hole injectors which improved running at hi revs but the bike still stalled and ran rough at 2500-3500 revs. I next installed the 401 map which made the bike run much better but was still rough at 2500-3500 revs with a lower idle. Bike stalled going down hill through downshift which locked rear tyre. I then changed CO to 1.5. Bike started first fire, idled smoothly and ran perfectly - for 400 metres. It then started misfiring and the trip and odometer reset to 000000 and the injector light came on. I wheeled it home and disconnected the battery for 24 hours and got the trip and odometer working and got it started. But I now can't get tuneecu to connect. Any suggestions? I have also purchased some Brisk plugs as my last resort.

Sent from my MIX 2 using Tapatalk
 
#29 · (Edited)
Crickey Peter! I have not experienced anything quite like that. Sounds like a bad electrical connection somewhere. The only time I had crazy electrical phenomenon was when I neglected to properly attach the earth terminals, one on the head and one down by the starter. After some crazy behaviour and an injector light that I ignored till I got home, it resulted in me frying my ECU. After I tightened the earth terminals it ran OK but would not switch off. In your situation I would be thinking about the things I have touched since it ran properly and checking all connections where I was working. Hope you find a problem without ECU damage. If Tune ECU will not connect it is likely a low voltage problem - again possibly a poor connection somewhere causing a voltage drop.

P.S. Those injectors would have different characteristics to the original. To get the best out of them you would need a remap, which means a dyno tune or Power Commander with AutoTune. However I don't see that as related to your weird electrical phenomenon.
 
#30 ·
PeterM said:
Bike started first fire, idled smoothly and ran perfectly - for 400 metres. It then started misfiring and the trip and odometer reset to 000000 and the injector light came on. I wheeled it home and disconnected the battery for 24 hours and got the trip and odometer working and got it started. But I now can't get tuneecu to connect. Any suggestions?
Click to expand...
  • Look for a possible vacuum leak. If fuel has sealed it the engine will run properly. When the fuel is drawn away the leak starts, leaning out the mixture and creating a misfire. It'll be "spitting back" through the throttle bodies.
  • When your trip reset the battery voltage will have dropped below that required to hold it up. I don't know the circumstances around that loss. You need to find out why it happened. The injector light came on for a reason. TuneECU / Axone could tell you what it was. That would be worth knowing.
  • To get TuneECU running again, there is a procedure someone came up with on here a number of years ago. I think I copied it and it's on my HDD somewhere. Alternatively, hook up an Axone. It will communicate and solve the problem TuneECU is having.
 
Discussion starter · #32 ·
Thanks for the reply.
Tuneecu said I had 12.4 volts when I was using it.
Regarding the vacuum, I may have created the problem. When I first installed the denso injectors the retaining clips kept coming loose from the fuel supply resulting in the injectors sliding down into the throttle bodies. After three attempts to get them to stay in place I fitted some shims to the bottom of the injectors forcing them to stay seated in the fuel supply. I may have then created an air leak at the throttle bodies. How do I test for a vacuum leak? This all seems like a bit of a black art.
Engenia said:
  • Look for a possible vacuum leak. If fuel has sealed it the engine will run properly. When the fuel is drawn away the leak starts, leaning out the mixture and creating a misfire. It'll be "spitting back" through the throttle bodies.
  • When your trip reset the battery voltage will have dropped below that required to hold it up. I don't know the circumstances around that loss. You need to find out why it happened. The injector light came on for a reason. TuneECU / Axone could tell you what it was. That would be worth knowing.
  • To get TuneECU running again, there is a procedure someone came up with on here a number of years ago. I think I copied it and it's on my HDD somewhere. Alternatively, hook up an Axone. It will communicate and solve the problem TuneECU is having.
Click to expand...
Sent from my MIX 2 using Tapatalk
 
#33 ·
PeterM said:
Thanks for the reply.
Tuneecu said I had 12.4 volts when I was using it.
Regarding the vacuum, I may have created the problem. When I first installed the denso injectors the retaining clips kept coming loose from the fuel supply resulting in the injectors sliding down into the throttle bodies. After three attempts to get them to stay in place I fitted some shims to the bottom of the injectors forcing them to stay seated in the fuel supply. I may have then created an air leak at the throttle bodies. How do I test for a vacuum leak? This all seems like a bit of a black art.

Sent from my MIX 2 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
If I remember correctly, 12.4V is dangerously low for TuneECU. You should always connect a charger when using it.

Use WD40 to check for a vacuum leak. It'll seal it up temporarily and the engine will change the way it is running.

When installing the injectors, smear the orings with silicon grease to help them to slip into place.
Also, try installing the injectors into the rail first and clipping them in place before slipping all three into the throttle bodies.
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
Thanks, I'll pull it down again and use silicone grease. I actually had the injectors tested by an injection mechanic in Maroochydore and he told me to use olive oil
Re the clips - I did seat them first in the rail, even tried tying them on with wire, but the moment they got fuel pressure at least one would unclip and slide down into the throttle body.
I'll also try tuneecu again with battery charger on. The bike won't hold a charge, it has a new battery fitted by Euro Bikes in Noosa, but I get maybe 6 goes straight starting it before it starts to go flat. It is connecte to the trickle charger all the time when not running
Engenia said:
If I remember correctly, 12.4V is dangerously low for TuneECU. You should always connect a charger when using it.

Use WD40 to check for a vacuum leak. It'll seal it up temporarily and the engine will change the way it is running.

When installing the injectors, smear the orings with silicon grease to help them to slip into place.
Also, try installing the injectors into the rail first and clipping them in place before slipping all three into the throttle bodies.
Click to expand...
Sent from my MIX 2 using Tapatalk
 
#35 ·
PeterM said:
Re the clips - I did seat them first in the rail, even tried tying them on with wire, but the moment they got fuel pressure at least one would unclip and slide down into the throttle body.
Click to expand...
Something weird's going on! There shouldn't be enough room for the injectors to move. The base should be bottoming in the body and the top should be fully inserted into the rail. The clips should hold them into the rail with ease. They should not be popping out even with the 45-50 psi fuel pressure behind them.
 
Discussion starter · #36 ·
Yes, I thought they were the wrong size at first but they are the same size as the ones I replaced. This what I put in. [https://i]

30lb 315cc Benelli TNT 1130 12-Hole Fuel Injector Upgrade Brand New

Engenia said:
Something weird's going on! There shouldn't be enough room for the injectors to move. The base should be bottoming in the body and the top should be fully inserted into the rail. The clips should hold them into the rail with ease. They should not be popping out even with the 45-50 psi fuel pressure behind them.
Click to expand...
Sent from my MIX 2 using Tapatalk
 
Discussion starter · #37 ·
PeterM said:
Yes, I thought they were the wrong size at first but they are the same size as the ones I replaced. This what I put in. [https://i]

30lb 315cc Benelli TNT 1130 12-Hole Fuel Injector Upgrade Brand New



Sent from my MIX 2 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
So, I couldn't get the bike to start or connect to Tuneecu so I pulled out the plugs which were carbonised with the central electrode showing signs of being burnt out. They had done about 100 km from new
They were also wet with fuel. I then put a set is silver Brisk plugs in. Bike started first time and idled at 1300. I took it on a 30km test ride where it pulled strongly thru the Rev range with no stuttering at 3000 revs. I even backed it off in 3rd to 2000 revs but it still accelerated without a misfire. It still vibrates at 3000 revs and seems to over fuel when you roll off the throttle but clears very quickly. It stalled once going from 3td to 2nd slowing down at a corner so I will change the idle to 1500. At his stage the Brisk plugs seem to work OK. Don't know how long this will last until it finds a way to have another issue.

Sent from my MIX 2 using Tapatalk
 
#38 ·
Sounds great so far Peter.
I too had an issue with my bike fouling the plugs it also had a few stalls whilst changing down at speed .. very unsettling whilst setting up for a bend!!!.
So I fitted a set of iridium plugs and downloaded a map from here in the "dyno run today " thread and ever since it's been sweet as a nut ! .

Let's hope you don't get any more niggles and are able to put a few more trouble free miles on the beast 🙂.
Rick
 
#39 ·
PeterM said:
Re the clips - I did seat them first in the rail, even tried tying them on with wire, but the moment they got fuel pressure at least one would unclip and slide down into the throttle body.

Peter this still bothers me, despite your last post after the bike ran OK for 30km. Is the length of the new injectors the same as the originals? Your latest post renews my interest in fitting these if it can get rid of the flat spot between 3200 and 3500 but it sounds as though the new injector bodies are shorter. I have never removed the injectors to see how they fit but after reading Errol's comments I wonder if they might require modification to the fuel rail brackets to lower the rail so they are held captive properly. Also, how did you go trying to connect Tune ECU with a re-charged battery?
Click to expand...
 
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