Hi guy's had a good ride up to peebles with a couple of mates and all great till i stopped to fill up, when i restarted her she fired up on 2 cylinders when i rev her she goes on to 3 as long as i keep the revs up everything is good but when i let her idle then increase the revs she splutters on 2 then picks up on to 3 cylinders, am i right in thinking either plugs or coil sticks, cheers. Yes it's a Tre-k 1130.
dropping a cylinder
ron d
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I think sealant is a waste of time as if you ever want into the the plugs again you will find the bond with silicone restricts you from refitting with a proper seal.
I've used "corrosion block" grease a blue high temp waterproof dielectric grease.
If you ever do a plug chop just wipe the grease again to reseal. Might not look nice but no one is going to see it.
Silicone has it's place but not in coil sticks. Just like in the building game it depends on cleanliness for a perfect seal.
Just grease the coil very lightly to aid pushing past the valve cover coil grommet and then when all bolted down a smear round the coil sticks at valve cover level.
If the coil pushes back out due to air pressure it will just be the small drain weep in the cylinder head behind the radiator gunged up. Nothing much you can do about it except push the grommet up the coil before fitting and then once the coil stick is down use a blunt tool (large allen key) to locate the grommet in the head.
Or carry a small tube of sealant with you if you go for the silicone type version
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This is what you want. Silicone grease, NOT silicone sealant
Don't use petroleum based grease as it will swell the rubber seal at the tip of the coil.
To expel the air in the cavity as you slip the stick into position, slide some thin copper wire (0.6mm?) into the cavity before installing the stick, then slide it out once the coil is seated.
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Sorry Trevor, I don't do Facebook.
Being something of a Laverda tragic, my main participation in social media is the Laverda forum.
One of the reasons I bought the Benelli triple is that it's the next generation of the Laverda triple. (Benelli engine had its design genesis in the Laverda factory).
The Tre-K shares the garage with a Laverda Jota amongst other things, including a Benelli 900 Sei.
I’m a handy enough mechanic with old bikes, but I’m more used to things that have carbies, proper sized spark plugs (14mm thread) and separate coils.
These pissy little spark plugs with stick coils buried in the cylinder head seem like a bad idea to me. Jamming a coil down a hole in the cylinder head is asking for trouble because cylinder heads get damn hot and coils don’t like heat. My Tre-K has only done 23,000 km and the coils are failing already, so it seems to me the stick-type coils are pretty much a consumable item.
If there’s room to mount them somewhere, I’d be tempted to go back to old-school design practice of separate coils and HT leads.
Being something of a Laverda tragic, my main participation in social media is the Laverda forum.
One of the reasons I bought the Benelli triple is that it's the next generation of the Laverda triple. (Benelli engine had its design genesis in the Laverda factory).
The Tre-K shares the garage with a Laverda Jota amongst other things, including a Benelli 900 Sei.
I’m a handy enough mechanic with old bikes, but I’m more used to things that have carbies, proper sized spark plugs (14mm thread) and separate coils.
These pissy little spark plugs with stick coils buried in the cylinder head seem like a bad idea to me. Jamming a coil down a hole in the cylinder head is asking for trouble because cylinder heads get damn hot and coils don’t like heat. My Tre-K has only done 23,000 km and the coils are failing already, so it seems to me the stick-type coils are pretty much a consumable item.
If there’s room to mount them somewhere, I’d be tempted to go back to old-school design practice of separate coils and HT leads.
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Where in Tassie are you Sprocket? I am down the Huon.
Sprocket says the design genesis for the Tornado Tre 900 engine was at Laverda. I'm curious where this comes from, as all the references say that Dr Riccardo Rosa was recruited to design the engine, and was an ex Cagiva 500GP designer - he doesn't seem to have worked at Laverda. I have read that the engine also had input from Ferrari - a triple is half a V6? I've always thought that Rosa designed what he knew as a race engine designer and the problems experienced were because he wasn't a production bike engine designer.
Love to know more about the Laverda link as I was a frequent visitor to Slater Laverda many years ago.
Love to know more about the Laverda link as I was a frequent visitor to Slater Laverda many years ago.
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423 Posts
Wyn - I read somewhere about the stillborn Laverda triple engine design ending up at Benelli. I'll see if I can dig up a reference. In the meantime here's some photos of the Laverda engine Moto Laverda's New Triple
Tractorman - I live in Bellerive. The problem with my bike dropping a cylinder happened in Huonville. Can't have been far from your place!
Tractorman - I live in Bellerive. The problem with my bike dropping a cylinder happened in Huonville. Can't have been far from your place!
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It's not the heat that does the damage (generally < 120C in a water cooled engine), it's the humidity. If the coil is not sealed, air is pumped in as the engine cools. If the conditions are right, the moisture will condense on the wires. Moisture and electricity are a bad mix if there are any free ions available to conduct. Once you have conduction you have current flowing where it won't do any good, and the coil fails, until the conduction path clears, but eventually the damage is too great and failure is permanent.
The reason stick coils are preferred in a modern engine is that the voltages they generate can be higher because there is no chance that an ignition lead can break down - there is none. A higher voltage means a fatter spark with more likelihood of healthy ignition. 20,000 Volts is way better than 3,000. Touch it! You'll get the idea. ............. Actually, don't touch it. That's a bad idea.
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The possible Laverda connection came from comments made by Piero Laverda (the surviving brother of the original Laverda motorcycle dynasty). Piero said that when Aprilia bought the Laverda factory, they didn’t buy the 3-Cylinder concept as it seems they thought it had no future and they were not willing to pay for it. Although oddly enough, they went on to design their own in-line 990cc triple for MotoGP, which they called the “RS Cube”.
Anyway, the story goes that some of the personnel from the Laverda design team for the 3-cylinder engine had connections with Benelli, and to quote Piero: "You could argue that the Benelli Engine is based on the concept of the engine that was under construction in the 90's at Laverda."
So, I don't know whether Laverda's design drawings found their way to Benelli, but Piero seems to indicate that there was some kind of technology transfer.
On the other hand, it may all be rumour and wild speculation. Next time I see Piero, I’ll ask him.
Anyway, the story goes that some of the personnel from the Laverda design team for the 3-cylinder engine had connections with Benelli, and to quote Piero: "You could argue that the Benelli Engine is based on the concept of the engine that was under construction in the 90's at Laverda."
So, I don't know whether Laverda's design drawings found their way to Benelli, but Piero seems to indicate that there was some kind of technology transfer.
On the other hand, it may all be rumour and wild speculation. Next time I see Piero, I’ll ask him.
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OK. I got the coils out. What a pain in the arse they are to get at. You wouldn't wanna have to change a spark plug on the side of the road.
This is the only vehicle of any sort I’ve come across where the cylinders are numbered from right to left. It must have been builtby Arabs (Arabic writing goes right to left).
Anyway, the dodgy cylinder was the right one (#1 according to Benelli, #3 according to normal convention). I’ll stick with R, C & L for Right, Centre and Left to avoid confusion.
Primary resistances measured: R 1.0 Ω; C 0.7 Ω; L 0.6 Ω. They’re supposed to be 0.6 Ohms, with 1.0 max, so the R coil is at the limit of acceptable spec. Perhaps it gets worse when hot.
As for secondary resistances, the workshop manual says 10 KΩ, which is a typical figure that I’d expect for an ignition coil. Mine all measure around 15 MΩ, so they’re either way out of range (by a factor of 1500) or the book is wrong, or I've done something stupid with my meter (although it's a self-ranging meter so not easy to stuff up). I’d be interested to know if anyone else has measured secondary resistances and what values they got.
Cheers,
Cam
PS: Found this replacement coil out of China
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Ign...-TORNADO-TNT300-STELS-300/32295169271.html?spm=2114.12057483.0.0.f6296c75ESaB22
For $25 US it's almost worth a punt! Although I've been stung with cheapo Chinese coils before.
This is the only vehicle of any sort I’ve come across where the cylinders are numbered from right to left. It must have been builtby Arabs (Arabic writing goes right to left).
Anyway, the dodgy cylinder was the right one (#1 according to Benelli, #3 according to normal convention). I’ll stick with R, C & L for Right, Centre and Left to avoid confusion.
Primary resistances measured: R 1.0 Ω; C 0.7 Ω; L 0.6 Ω. They’re supposed to be 0.6 Ohms, with 1.0 max, so the R coil is at the limit of acceptable spec. Perhaps it gets worse when hot.
As for secondary resistances, the workshop manual says 10 KΩ, which is a typical figure that I’d expect for an ignition coil. Mine all measure around 15 MΩ, so they’re either way out of range (by a factor of 1500) or the book is wrong, or I've done something stupid with my meter (although it's a self-ranging meter so not easy to stuff up). I’d be interested to know if anyone else has measured secondary resistances and what values they got.
Cheers,
Cam
PS: Found this replacement coil out of China
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Ign...-TORNADO-TNT300-STELS-300/32295169271.html?spm=2114.12057483.0.0.f6296c75ESaB22
For $25 US it's almost worth a punt! Although I've been stung with cheapo Chinese coils before.
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I'd say the secondaries are open circuit, and you are measuring the carbon tracks created by the coils breaking down.
Moot point though. The #1 coil has failed and it needs replacement. If you don't have a spare to drop in there, buy three. If one is crook, two more won't be far behind. Personally, I replace them as they fail & keep a spare in my kit. In 130,000 km, I've got a box of maybe six dead ones.
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423 Posts
Interesting theory. I suppose it's possible for that to happen and the engine still run. The secondary winding would produce a high enough voltage to jump any open circuit gaps, as it does the spark plug gap.
3 new coils it is. I'll shop around for the cheapest source. I think I'll avoid the cheap Chinese ones though. The last Chinese coils I bought would struggle to make a spark if they were struck by lightning. There are plenty of used coils on ebay, but no guarantee that they're any better than what I've got.
Cam
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These appear to be pretty good value https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/3x-BENE...-COIL-IC502/271016884878?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
They don't appear to have an earth connection though. The BERU coils have 3 wires, whereas these look like they only have 2 pins in the socket. Has anyone fitted these coils?
They don't appear to have an earth connection though. The BERU coils have 3 wires, whereas these look like they only have 2 pins in the socket. Has anyone fitted these coils?
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You only need three wires in an autotransformer. Two in the socket to the primary, one of which also connects to the secondary. The third connects to the plug cap.
The Techautos coils are fine. When he was starting out he sent me some examples and I had them modified slightly to fit properly. They are fully sealed, unlike the OEM's, and will last longer. The jury is out if you are racing, and spending most of the time near peak revs. Alex reckoned that was an issue. Personally, I haven't seen it, but I don't spend much time over 8000.
Here's some alternatives
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Thanks Errol, I'm aware of the way coils are wired. Some ignition coils have a separate earth for the secondary winding (like my Beru coils). Others, like the auto transformer type shown in your diagram, have an internal connection so that the secondary winding can earth via the coil switching circuit.
The auto transformer type are fine with contact breaker points, but not all electronic ignition systems are happy with the HV current finding an earth through the electronic circuitry.
The reason I asked is that I don't know when or why Benelli changed from one type of coil to the other on the Tre-K, or whether there was an accompanying change in the ECU. Actually, I think I just answered that question. I looked up the ECU part numbers on the City Moto site. It's the same for all Tre-K models from 2007 to 2011, so it must be OK with either type of coil.
I'm not racing any more so this bike is purely for road use. I decided I was getting too old to be falling off race bikes. I don't bounce as well as I used to. Actually, I bought this Tre-K with some of the cash I got last year from selling my historic race bike (pictured below).
Cheers,
Cam
The auto transformer type are fine with contact breaker points, but not all electronic ignition systems are happy with the HV current finding an earth through the electronic circuitry.
The reason I asked is that I don't know when or why Benelli changed from one type of coil to the other on the Tre-K, or whether there was an accompanying change in the ECU. Actually, I think I just answered that question. I looked up the ECU part numbers on the City Moto site. It's the same for all Tre-K models from 2007 to 2011, so it must be OK with either type of coil.
I'm not racing any more so this bike is purely for road use. I decided I was getting too old to be falling off race bikes. I don't bounce as well as I used to. Actually, I bought this Tre-K with some of the cash I got last year from selling my historic race bike (pictured below).
Cheers,
Cam
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All coils replaced, but still not firing on the right-hand cylinder. There's voltage at the coil primary connector, but the coil isn't making sparks when I crank the engine. If I swap coils and plugs around the fault still remains on right cylinder. That confirms all coils an plus are working, so it looks like the right hand coil isn't getting a firing signal from the ECU.
Reckon I'd better get a Walbro EU adaptor and the TuneECU software and check for error codes.
I presume these adaptors on eBay are OK. https://www.ebay.com/itm/TUNE-ECU-C...-CABLE-LEAD-BENELLI-ADAPTOR-REMAP-YOUR-TORNADO-TREK-TNT-MOTORBIKE-/380823720178
Reckon I'd better get a Walbro EU adaptor and the TuneECU software and check for error codes.
I presume these adaptors on eBay are OK. https://www.ebay.com/itm/TUNE-ECU-C...-CABLE-LEAD-BENELLI-ADAPTOR-REMAP-YOUR-TORNADO-TREK-TNT-MOTORBIKE-/380823720178
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1,360 Posts
just a thought..
Cam,
have you looked at the crank position sensor yet ?.
it may be part of the problem if you were getting a spark at high revs on the problem cylinder, maybe it needs cleaning or replacing .
worth a look anyway :lager:
Those leads look about right to me mine came with a two pin loop as well for changing the mapping also
hope its sorted soon Rick
Cam,
have you looked at the crank position sensor yet ?.
it may be part of the problem if you were getting a spark at high revs on the problem cylinder, maybe it needs cleaning or replacing .
worth a look anyway :lager:
Those leads look about right to me mine came with a two pin loop as well for changing the mapping also
hope its sorted soon Rick
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423 Posts
Haven't looked at the crank sensor. I'd have thought any fault there wold affect all cylinders. I'll have a bit of a poke around today to see if there's anything obvious like a damaged wire or dirty pin on connector. Will pull the crank sensor and have a look.
It's unaffected by revs. Right hand cylinder is not sparking at all.
It's unaffected by revs. Right hand cylinder is not sparking at all.
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423 Posts
OK, I've done all the tests outlined on page 7/48 of the worekshop manual (basically continuity and short circuit tests of the wiring between the ECU and the coils) and it all checks out OK, although some of the testsdon't make sense.
For instance, it talks about checking the wiring to the lock relay and safety relay. WTF? There are no such relays shown on the wiring diagram.
Anyway, the wiring all seems OK as far as I can make sense of the test procedures, and coil #1 (right side) is still not firing. So it seems my ECU might have thrown its leg in the air. Bugger!
I've ordered a TuneECU cable from Lonlec for the Walbro unit so I can check for errors, but it'll take a while to get here from UK. If anyone has any suggestions in the meantime, please don't hold back.
Cheers,
Cam
For instance, it talks about checking the wiring to the lock relay and safety relay. WTF? There are no such relays shown on the wiring diagram.
Anyway, the wiring all seems OK as far as I can make sense of the test procedures, and coil #1 (right side) is still not firing. So it seems my ECU might have thrown its leg in the air. Bugger!
I've ordered a TuneECU cable from Lonlec for the Walbro unit so I can check for errors, but it'll take a while to get here from UK. If anyone has any suggestions in the meantime, please don't hold back.
Cheers,
Cam
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I don't have the TreK wiring diagram, but it's hard to believe that it would be too much different to the Tornado. The RS is essentially the same. Both have a Safety Relay.
Of course, there's no way IT can stop just one coil from firing.
If you had an Oscilloscope you could look at the #1 coil signal from the ECU to confirm.
Failing that, simply buzz the wire out from connector pin to connector pin with a multimeter.
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