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my battery is definitely good, it has 240amps inrush current
240 is marginal for an 1130 when hot. 200 Amps won't turn over my 900 when hot.
I thought about the aribox temperature sensor, if it could cause such a problem..
Not likely
My Z25 sprocket has no markings or engravers.
Can you measure the outside diameter?
You'll be on top of one tooth and between two on the other side, so not a true diameter. I could measure my old one to compare. The new one is definitely smaller diameter.
 
I will measure the diameter Z25 on the weekend
so that the 1130 engine efficiently starts o hot engine what power should the battery be? 280A? maybe try to add an extra cable from the battery to the starter

benelli 1130 is so beautiful that I can look at it when the engine cools down and drink coffee, but sometimes I do not have time;)


my fanpage Benelli TNT 1130 https://www.facebook.com/sianeksgarage/

To sum up, in order to remove the fault I need:
z25 mod R300000081000
Belville washer R310032007000

 
Original Z25 Gear 'Diameter'

A ruler is not going to cut it I'm thinking. You'll need a set of calipers :-

It's a bit hard to hold the calipers in the right hand and take a picture on a right handed camera, but here it is ....

This is TaxTre's original Z25 gear, measured with the caliper touching two teeth on the left and one tooth on the right. As near as you can get to the outside diameter, it measures 76.35 mm.
The new one is definitely less, but I don't know by how much. I'm guessing that it is in the 75's
 
A ruler is not going to cut it I'm thinking. You'll need a set of calipers :-

It's a bit hard to hold the calipers in the right hand and take a picture on a right handed camera, but here it is ....
View attachment 30817
This is TaxTre's original Z25 gear, measured with the caliper touching two teeth on the left and one tooth on the right. As near as you can get to the outside diameter, it measures 76.35 mm.
The new one is definitely less, but I don't know by how much. I'm guessing that it is in the 75's

Thank you for making the old Z25 dimension:bow:
if z25 is mounted it is very difficult to measure such a diameter, I have to disassemble it


I also read that you can get to know the old and new type after finishing z25
the new type is glossy smooth
old type matte and rough, is it true?

half the diameter of my z25 is 37.5 mm, so the total diameter is about 75mm
 
Thank you for making the old Z25 dimension:bow:
if z25 is mounted it is very difficult to measure such a diameter, I have to disassemble it


I also read that you can get to know the old and new type after finishing z25
the new type is glossy smooth
old type matte and rough, is it true?

half the diameter of my z25 is 37.5 mm, so the total diameter is about 75mm

Generally the upgraded z25s have a smoother finish than the "cast" finish.

I say generally as I had a newer smooth finish in my last trek which still suffered from the twisted spline shaft (hot start problem) . I just replaced it in time and the replacement z25 gear was identical to the failed one..

In saying that though , it could have been the previous owner (dealer ) only replacing the gear and forgetting (conveniently) to omit fitting the new splined shaft which comes as part of the kit. With hindsight it was probably the latter which is why you should fit it yourself:rolleyes: or ask for the old parts back if a dealer does the job.
 
New/Old Z25 measurements

A ruler is not going to cut it I'm thinking. You'll need a set of calipers :-
It's a bit hard to hold the calipers in the right hand and take a picture on a right handed camera, but here it is ....
View attachment 30817
This is TaxTre's original Z25 gear, measured with the caliper touching two teeth on the left and one tooth on the right. As near as you can get to the outside diameter, it measures 76.35 mm.
The new one is definitely less, but I don't know by how much. I'm guessing that it is in the 75's
Just received a new one for Jane's RS. It measures 76.14, so it is 0.2 mm smaller in diameter than the original. No idea if the tooth profile has changed. It is 7 mm wide. Originally they were 5.5 mm
 
I haven't actually got my 900 yet was thinking it might be the end of this week i did send the garage a link to Engenia's maintenance page and asked them to check that these things were checked they've advised that they are now awaiting parts from Belgium as no where else has them / i chose this bike as it has 27k on the clock and i thought it all may have been sorted but maybe not, the bikes a 2006 but looking at the frame no. indicates a 2004 forgive me if I've read it wrong VIN ZBNTB00004P101015
DATE OF REG 01/06/2006
SN06KNO

Probably shouldn't post the reg but, interested if anyone here knows the bike its had two previous owners possibly in Scotland

Thanks for any help in advance
 
Sorry if Ive zoomed through this Z25 conversation and missed this bit, but why is the shaft and gear important to check and upgrade ? I read in there somewhere that it can affect hot running ? Anything else ? What and how does it influence the running of the engiine - please.
Marmite
 
The old z25 shaft and gear clearances can cause the shaft to become overstressed when the engine becomes warmer, which can cause the shaft to snap in use and cause engine damage. The old shaft and gear were machined separately and were slightly eccentric which made the situation worse, the new shaft and gear are machined together and so are less eccentric but they also have more clearance. And so less likely to cause problems. Sometimes it would actually cause the engine to struggle to turn over when hot.
The new shaft and gear usually have a small triangle arrow to show alignment.
 
I’ve just done a Z25 shaft extraction on my Tre-K 1130, and it didn’t go as easily as I’d hoped. This is going to be quite a saga, so get a cup of tea and a biscuit.

Firstly, I did a bit of homework: read the workshop manual, studied parts diagrams and read all the info I could find on the internet. Errol’s "Engenia" website was very helpful. I was confident I knew how to do it, so started work on the bike.

With the clutch cover and clutch removed, the alternator and cush-drive coupling off, I could see the Z25 gear and both ends of the shaft. So far so good.

First thing I noticed was that the Z25 gear was loose on the shaft. It would slide in and out on the spline as far as surrounding structures would allow. Interesting, it’s not supposed to be like that.

The other thing I noticed was that the M10 bolt that holds the alternator coupling on the left end of the shaft was loose. In fact it had backed out by a couple of turns. I undid it the rest of the way with my fingers and discovered that the belville washer had been installed the wrong way around, so it wouldn’t have been effective at keeping the bolt tight (Actually, I’m not convinced that belville washers serve any useful function as a locking device, but that’s another story).

The time had come to push the shaft out. I knew from my reading that you can’t just withdraw the shaft, otherwise the starter (sprag) clutch assembly, which sits in the middle of the same shaft will drop down into the gearbox, and would be a hassle to retrieve. So the shaft has to be pushed out and followed by a piece of bar that will fit through the spline on the sprag clutch to capture it in position. I also knew that the shaft could be reluctant to come out, and may need to be driven out through the Z25 gear by hammer and drift.

So, to do both jobs (drift and following shaft) I got a bit of ½” bright steel shaft and turned a M10 by 1.25 thread on the end. That way I could screw it into the threaded end of the Z25 shaft and use it to tap the shaft out through the Z25 gear. With Z25 shaft and drift being firmly connected via the thread, there was no way the sprag clutch could fall through.

Next job was to find a piece of pipe that the Z25 shaft could slide through, which a mate would hold against the sprocket while I tapped the drift from the other side. After rummaging around in various off-cut bins, I found a suitable piece of stainless pipe. I roughly cut it with a hacksaw and tidied the ends up with the lathe.

The drift was screwed in. My mate Hal was on the other side holding the pipe against the gear, and a heavy lump hammer against the other end of the pipe for extra inertia. Everything was in place so I gave the end of the drift a few taps. The shaft went through a bit then stopped. I gave it a few more taps. Nothing happened. I told Hal to lean into it and I gave the drift a hard whack — still no movement. So I whaled into it with as much force as I could muster. The shaft stubbornly refused to go any further. Hmm, time for a different approach.

We then had the idea of tapping it the other way, out through the alternator side, at least far enough so I could slip the Z25 gear off the right end of the shaft. I should have known better, but the idea took hold before I’d thought it through. I quickly grabbed another bit of the ½” shaft and turned a 5mm spigot on the end to centre in the 5mm hole in the right end (the gear side) of the shaft and started tapping. The shaft moved back through the Z25 gear and looked like it might keep going far enough to let me take the gear off. Hal was standing on the alternator side watching the shaft emerge as I tapped it through. He then said “a circlip has just come off”. WTF? I went around for a look and was horrified to see that the ball bearing and its retaining circlip on the alternator side of the shaft had pushed part of the way out of the housing, breaking the circlip groove out as it went. Shit!

Time to take stock of the situation and find another way to get the shaft out. Hal had to be somewhere else so he left and I sat there for a while wondering what to do next. The only thing I could think of was to cut the gear off the shaft. I emailed Errol (Engenia) and he suggested pushing the shaft as far to the right as it would go so it stuck out beyond the gear, cut the protruding end off with a grinder, then push it as far to the left as it would go give enough room to take the gear off. That approach eventually worked, but it took a bit of butchery. I had to chew the grinder fairly deep into the gear to shorten the shaft enough to make room for the gear to come out.

Once the gear was off the end, the shaft slid out through the right side easily. Job done!

With the shaft on the bench, it was obvious why we couldn’t get it to tap out through the gear spline, and why it hung up on the sprag clutch spline and forced the bearing out. It had a hell of a twist in it. The twisted bit looked more like a helical gear than a spline. At least the bloody thing was out now. Installing the new shaft and repairing the broken circlip groove will no doubt be another episode in this saga.

You will recall from earlier in the story that the belville washer was installed arse about. The conical (convex) side was pointing towards the shaft, whereas it should point towards the bolt head. From that, I surmised that someone had attempted to remove the Z25 shaft before (the bike had the tell-tale hot start problem). I reckon he tried to knock the shaft through, found it wouldn’t go. So he just gave up on the job, put the bike back together and sold it.

Whether that was the guy I bought the bike from, or the owner prior to him, I guess I’ll never know.


The take-home lesson for anyone else attempting this job is not to drive a stubborn shaft back through towards the alternator side without first removing the bearing circlip.

Stay tuned for further developments.

Cheers,
Cam
 

Attachments

Wow Cam what a job admire your resolve at sticking with it, i cant understand the spline shaft distorting like that, did the construction process not allow for tempering the shaft to prevent twisting like that, its as though someone said, that's gonna cost, just bung a bit of old mild steel in there
 
Thanks for the write-up Cam.
I've seen shafts with a bit of a twist in them, Laurence's comes to mind, but all have come out from left to right. Yours is the first to require butchering to remove right to left.
It would be interesting to find out how hard it is compared with other's I have replaced. I suspect not much at all to twist like it has.
 
Discussion starter · #99 ·
Nice write-up and well done for getting it out, that is some twist and you are lucky you caught it before it broke.

Not sure how you are going to go about fixing the cir clip groove though. Answers on a postcard to Cam :rolleyes:
 
Agreed cracking write up ( no pun intended) ...
A massive heads up here too for those thinking about doing this.
I was thinking Cam maybe if there is enough space between the casing and the alternator drive thingy it may be possible to retain the bearing by a flanged washer of some sort drilled and tapped to the inner casing ?!?
Mind you I've not looked to hard at mine whilst checking so I may be way off the mark .
 
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