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Actually i like the hard seat:) I was looking at those Ebay versions, but i would rather not go vinyl, thinking it might be quite slippy?
There are leather versions on ebay , scroll down and you will find some , they are better and virtually the same price. I have one and its very good , with the extra padding in my case.
 

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Discussion Starter · #102 ·
Has anyone of you guys tried a Ducati 999 wheels for your Tornado?

Or is there some other wheel option that could be made to fit with relative ease?
 

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Discussion Starter · #103 ·
I had a spare lower rad from my MV F4 on the garage, and just out of curiosity "test fitted" it in the place where the v-piece fairing sits at the front. It easily fits there, what you reckon, does the pump have enough juice if i install an extra radiator?
 

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I had a spare lower rad from my MV F4 on the garage, and just out of curiosity "test fitted" it in the place where the v-piece fairing sits at the front. It easily fits there, what you reckon, does the pump have enough juice if i install an extra radiator?
Errol , this is one for you, you have done more than anyone with cooling on Benelli Tornado,s.
What are your thoughts on an additional front mounted rad. I know you have modified the air flow through your own Tre rear mounted rad and used electric pumps to increase flow.
Is a front mounted extra rad the answer .
 

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Errol , this is one for you, you have done more than anyone with cooling on Benelli Tornado,s.
What are your thoughts on an additional front mounted rad. I know you have modified the air flow through your own Tre rear mounted rad and used electric pumps to increase flow.
Is a front mounted extra rad the answer .
It's an answer, but not one I would pursue.
I don't have an 1130, but I'd be most surprised if its overheating problems can't be solved with an electric water pump that can move 30 lpm at any speed. In fact Rene Riepl & Alex Nolte have already done it with a 20 lpm pump, although Rene did add a couple of extra fans. The mechanical pump can only make 15 lpm at revs, and barely does anything at idle.

You've probably heard about my recent experience. My radiator was 20 % blocked and the electric water pump masked it. I had no idea until I reverted to the mechanical pump, which couldn't keep the temp under control at 100 kph and under 30 C ambient.
(I only went back to the mechanical pump because I needed to modify my controller and ran out of time before a trip.)
A couple of years ago I rode Nell at 10 kph in the mountains for an hour with a staked rear tyre, the electric pump was running flat out and so was the fan, but she didn't overheat. She might have lasted 10 minutes with the mechanical pump.

To improve cooling capacity you can increase air flow and/or increase coolant flow. The latter works because heat energy transfers from a high temperature body to a lower one using coolant as the medium much faster than you would think - much faster than air, as the heat capacity of water is much much higher. Just put your hand in a 100 C stream of air, then see how long you can hold it in a stream of boiling water, you'll get the idea.
The flow limit is reached when cavitation begins, but I haven't seen that in Nell at the rates I'm using.
 

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Discussion Starter · #107 ·
I wonder if there`s a mechanical pump that`s more capable? i`m not keen on installing the electric one, it might work but looks a mess :)

I would so love to keep it looking standard (ish).... mind you, the extra rad does not look standard either!

While all this thinking is going on, i must say that i didn`t see it overheating at the end of last summer. So might be chasing a ghost here. The ambient temps were very low though, so not really giving me the indication whats to come when summer heats up.
 

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I wonder if there`s a mechanical pump that`s more capable? i`m not keen on installing the electric one, it might work but looks a mess :)
Yes there is, or was. A company in Italy redesigned the pump to be more efficient at low revs. Those who use it are quite happy with it, but as with all mechanical pumps, they can not operate efficiently over the entire rev range. You must choose the range you expect to spend most time in and be careful if you operate outside it. The OEM pump is designed to work best at the top end, the redesigned pump works best at lower revs. Use it on the track and you may be end up overheating due to cavitation. No one has reported it, but it is possible.
The other problem with a mechanical pump is that the flow can't be increased without the engine revs also increasing. There is nothing you can do when sitting at lights, or roadworks, or travelling at 10 kph, to improve the situation, other than switching the engine off. An electric pump doesn't have this restriction. It runs faster whenever you need it, and slower when you don't. It is also far more efficient and has no seals to wear out and leak.
36419

This is mine. Barely noticeable with the fairing in place.
 

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Discussion Starter · #109 ·
Must admit that is does not look half bad, somehow remembered it being much larger.

How is it controlled?
 

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How is it controlled?
36422

An MSP430 micro-controller sets the pump speed, while measuring the pump current to make sure that it doesn't drop below the level at which the pump thinks it is running dry. Two fast temperature sensors provide engine and radiator outlet temperature.
I had originally used the oem temp sensor, but it was too slow for what I am trying to achieve. I want it to respond to a rapid drop in radiator temperature when accelerating from a standstill (at lights) to 100 kph. The oem system responds by closing the thermostat, but too slow to stop the shock. I aim to respond by slowing the pump speed before the cold coolant enters the engine, thus reducing the shock.
It takes control of the fans as well, so that they come on, and off, at more precise temperatures.
I am also providing for coolant flow through the engine while warming up, when the thermostat is still closed, in a similar manner to a modern car, to prevent hot spots. The controller closes the bypass off when the thermostat is half open, to ensure that ALL of the coolant exiting the engine flows through the radiator. It is modeled on the ThermoBob, but a little more sophisticated.
 

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Haven't worked out the cost yet, but the Davies Craig controller is AUD 220 + gst, so I wouldn't charge any more, even though it is more capable and much much more compact.
It would be helpful Errol if you just confirmed exactly what is needed to do this conversion. Parts list of which pump etc We can get Craig Davies pumps over here , I think your more sophisticated thermal control would not be needed , certainly in England. If it can be run on the thermostat in the bike with may be an increase in flow rates if temperatures climb . The few hot days we do sometimes get in this country.
 

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It would be helpful Errol if you just confirmed exactly what is needed to do this conversion. Parts list of which pump etc
Minimal system - using existing 15s temp sensor:
  1. The pump is an EBP40.
  2. Two reducers to match the pump to the existing plumbing
  3. Mechanical pump orifice blocking plate
  4. Controller
  5. Wiring to suit - pump, oem engine coolant sensor & power to the controller
Additional:
  1. bypass block - fits between engine and thermostat housing
  2. 2x 1s temp sensors for both radiator and engine coolant - 1 in the bypass block & one in a junction tube a few inches upstream of the radiator outlet. (Maniac have changed the oem temp sensor for a faster one, but it is still slower than optimum)
  3. bypass solenoid - to allow the controller to close the bypass circuit completely
  4. block off existing oil cooler circuit - this is mainly there to ensure that there is a coolant path back to the pump when the thermostat is closed. It does nothing for oil cooling when it is needed - when the engine is hot, the thermostat is open, drastically reducing coolant flow through the oil temperature transfer circuit.
  5. fan relay wiring - to take control from the ecu, which switches it off too cold. There are situations that arise where, once the fan is turned on, it never turns off. It's hard to hear it running, so you generally don't notice it until you pull up and switch off, and wonder why the fan stayed on for a bit.
  6. wiring to include bypass solenoid and fast temperature sensors.
I think your more sophisticated thermal control would not be needed , certainly in England. If it can be run on the thermostat in the bike with may be an increase in flow rates if temperatures climb .
The issue I mentioned is likely to be more pronounced in cold weather, as the radiator will cool faster than in hot, once moving at speed. Counter intuitive, but when you think it through, you'll understand the logic.
If you log the speed vs engine temperature in an un-modified Tornado you'll see what I mean. (I don't have a log in jpg format to show you.) In aircraft circles, a sudden fall of anything more than 10 C is considered detrimental to engine longevity. Read the ThermoBob literature to discover what that does to a KLR650 engine. I don't think the Tornado is anywhere near as bad, but if I can eliminate it, that is a good thing.
Even as it warms up (see the following log), you can see the thermostat switching from open to fully closed for several minutes, until the radiator gets nearer to operating temperature, no longer providing cold water to shock the barrels and head. A bypass circuit will smooth that. You don't see it in bikes because of the restricted space available, but it is in most modern cars. My Fiat 124 Sports Coupe had it in 1970.
36443

The thermostat installed for the above log was a 92 C part. It is fully open at 92, and begins opening 10 C lower.
 

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I wouldnt question any of errols wise words above, an electric pump would indeed seem to offer the ultimate solution.
I did purchase the upgrade mechanical pump mentioned above, via the guys on the italian forum. It was a straight bolt on replacement pump for my 900, which for yrs had been a complete pain for wetting itself....It certainly christened all corners of the uk!
I had previously tried replacing both the rad and the std pump to no avail. However since fitting it 2 yrs ago it has behaved itself completely....no more green puddles on the drive for me....
Appreciate the warnings re prolonged high revs/cavitation. Whilst i no longer use it for full on trackdays i have done several track parades with no issues so very happy.
Strangely none of my other benellis, (1x900, 1x1130 and the cafe racer) have ever shown any such wetting proclivities.....
 
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Discussion Starter · #117 ·
Question about maps, i have the Tuneboy cables and program. But was there some known "good" map that i should start with when hitting the dyno?

I`m going to use the existing one of course first, but if and when we start playing with maps, would be nice to know what map to start with.
 

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Where did you buy the pump? You know if these are still for sale?
Hi sorry, missed your question. This was one of a batch commissioned by Roby Isalberti, one of the italian group on the Benelli forum facebook page a few yrs ago. I have not heard of another batch being commissioned sadly
 

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Discussion Starter · #119 · (Edited)
Actually i could get pumps made here in Finland, just need a model for it.

The shop does gearbox parts for Helicopters, so are pretty well equipped
 

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Discussion Starter · #120 ·
First ride after rebuild :)

Otherwise fine, but slight hesitation off idle, and sometimes stalls after cold start, but starts and runs fine when warm.

Needs mapping, again..... and yeah, it was -4 C here!
 
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