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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Thought I'd try to get some assistance and advice from the guys that tune in to this forum!

As some of you may have read a few months back I had the misfortune of a valve stem snapping and dropping the head in to the block whilst the engine was spinning up around the 9,000 rpm mark. The result was catasrophic for the engine, which was duly replaced as a complete lump by Benelli in September.

I collected the bike once it was done and managed to get 85 miles of running in on the new engine done on the way home from Cologne to where I am based in Germany, however was certain the engine was acting up and was feeling lumpy!

Well, the bike has sat in the garage until this afternoon, when as the weather was dry and the temperatures had risen to a tropical 2 degrees!!! I decided to try to get a few more miles on it so hopefully the engine could be serviced in time for the spring/summer fun to come.

Anyway, to cut a long story short I seem to have a big problem around the 4,000 - 5,500 rpm area, in all gears whether accelerating or decelerating!

The engine losses power, surges coughs splutters and feels like it is missing or even only firing on two. Once I ride through the 5,500 area onto 7,000 it smooths out again, so there must be something wrong, but it can't be as simple as a plug going down!

Am I likely to be screwing up another engine, or is this a simple mapping problem? I no longer have the luxury of a bike trailer as my friend (who I used to borrow one from) has since returned to England, and it is too damn cold to ride 50 miles down to Cologne, so I can't get it to my 'local' dealers just yet!

What do people think about the problem? I am sure it is not me being paranoid because I have already had an engine go on me, there definately is something wrong, but please tell me that paranoia isn't creeping in regarding Benelli in general!

I so love this bike, it was merely a pipe dream to own one when I first saw Goddard riding one around Assen in '98, the distinctiveness, uniqueness and individuality of the macine is so compelling, but if I get many more problems with this one I am going to have to cut my losses and go back to riding a japanesse rice boiler!

Please give me encouragement, advice and lots of tips on how to stay in love with this beaut of a machine...I don't want to go cheating on her!!!!

Cheers,

Andy
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
hmmm sounds like something hasnt been rebuilt properly. If poss drop a line to VTXbrit on the TNT bit. He's smart when it comes to stuff like this and may have some pointers just from the problems you have mentioned.

I suppose its easy enough for someone to say 'stay with benelli, they have unique charms' but until it happens to you its easy enough to say that. I really hope you get it all sorted either way

Keep us posted

Dean
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Something hasn't been rebuilt properly? This was a complete engine swap out, old one out, new one in, it shouldn't affect the engine in this manner,

I have an idea that it may be a management problem, but I am just to scared to keep running it in just in case something lets go again!

Andy
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
My Tre runs a little rough between 4,000 & 5,000. This is a characteristic which seems to be general across the fleet. But, yours appears to be extreme.

JohnnyO could tell you exactly what's going on, but I would think it is not mechanical, but more likely tuning. Check the map, it should be 6033. The original map that came on your bike will be written on the ECU, as "versione", on the bottom line. If it has been changed from the original, and not noted on the ECU, you can get it by connecting Tuneboy or an Axione (or other compatible) computer to it. It's read out from the ECU memory.

JohnnyO leaned out mine a month or so back, and it smoothed it out a little.

If JohnnyO doesn't post an answer, drop me an email (click on "Engenia" to the left, you'll see it in the next window), and I'll try to call him direct in Melbourne for you.

Good Luck
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Simple math

Engines only need three things no matter what technology gets behind them: Fuel, Spark, and air. I am guessing that you are getting plenty of air so the only two items left are the ones most likely to be causing problems. The fuel map and the ignition timing. Both need ot be checked in the mapping software. get back to your Benelli dealer and get them on it. Ask what version it is and make sure that version gets recorded in your maintenance manual. Also, get the mechanic to ride it in that range so he can see what is going on BEFORE he starts looking at the mapping. On one other note, what are you doing in that rev range if it is a brand new engine? Shouldn't you e breaking it in? Be cautious of what you go to a dealer and tell them as it may void your warrenty on this new engine. Good luck and keep us all posted on the problem/solution when you find it.

Cheers.
john
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Re: Simple math

Thanks again for the replies given, all will be checked out as long as I can get a day of two when the weather warms up enough to take a 100+ mile round trip to Cologne.

Johnny, normal running in usually means a limit of 5,000 - 5,500 on all modern machines, I4's, V2's or triples. Having the advantage of friends at Crescent Suzuki (of Rizla Suzuki and Suzuki Moto GP ilke) I have been advised by some very proffessional mechanics that these limits are set too low, they are intended for the younger riders who would not hesitate to go out and wring the neck of their brand new bikes - that's when most problems occur, likewise holding a bike at the same speed, in the same gear for its run in does.

I run my motor up to 5,000 in the first three gears, loading and unloading torque from just above idle through to the limit in all the gears, once in the upper three gears, I will gradually add a little more power, not straining the engine up to a maximum of 6,500 rpm. This helps the engine bed in better, and as said, as long as you don't cane the thing it will not cause any damage.

I agree with your ideas regarding fuel/ignition but it seems a bit strange as the ECU wasn't replaced, just the engine, so it stands to figure that the map that was in it to start with should still be there! I dunno?

Incidentally, when the engine was replaced I enquired about the second 'first' service on the engine, as it will require running in, the official line from Benelli was, 'We will not pay for a first service under warranty as the engine will not need one, the owner can go straight out and ride it normally!'

Now I found that hard to believe, and am running it in, even though they state it is not necessary!

How can a new engine not need running in? Strange!

Even the dealers said that a quick check over would be advisable and I do not think that it was because of them trying to get as much money out of me as possible, they really did seem genuinly sorry for me with all the problems I have had!

Anyway, I will keep you all posted accordingly, and if there are any more snippets of information, I will be most grateful.

Andy
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Re: First Service

I would rate the first service as being the most important in it's lifetime! When an engine is first built, it is not scrupulously cleaned, and retains fine metallic slivers left over from manufacture. Also, as the rolling & sliding surfaces bed in, a deal of swarf is produced. These will end up in the oil. This is why the first service is early - 1000km, and subsequent intervals are 5000km.

I have had all of my spent oil tested.

The first was horrible. Wear residues were in the "Alarm" region, and contamination was in the "High Normal" region. Chemical contamination was nil.

The 2nd & 3rd services showed statuses of wear, contamination & chemical, to be nil. The 3rd also showed that the oil could have been used for 13000km without it even entering the "high normal" range.

The moral? The first service is crucially important.

(On the rough running. What are your valve clearances?)
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
engine splutter

Hmmmmm, very interesting, have you had this problem all the time that the new engine has been in? Man I am really surprised that you had the original problem with the valve; @#%$, my Tornado's have lived at 13,000 rpm their whole lives without a problem!

If you have had the problem all the time that the new engine has been fitted, maybe it could be a cam timing problem but I tend to agree with Engenia that it is more likely to be electrical; maybe a it's a spike in the fuel map, I've had that happen before; get the fuel map reloaded....

6033 Tornado standard muffler
6034 Tornado race muffler
6103 Tornado RS standard muffler
6105 Tornado RS race muffler

With regards to 'running in' procedure, I stick with the following and highly recommend it......

From first start up, us non synthetic oil for better bed-in of all internal components, change the oil after the first 100km's to the same non synthetic oil of a viscosity suitable for you climate.

From brand new, avoid constant high rpm (no more than one or two seconds) as this overly heats the engine parts as they generate more heat before they are bed-in. Give the bike some full throttle bursts (for two or three seconds) at mid rpm (5,000) in the mid gears; this precedure forces components together to bed them in without over heating them.

After about 300km's change the oil to a good quality synthetic oil; from then on my bikes and our demo & press bikes are ready to take what ever you want to throw at them; just ask Tax, that's how his engine was run-in.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Re: Breaking in an aircraft Engine

Maybe a little off subject, but..
Anyone interested in reading an article on breaking in a piston engined aircraft?
I saved it from a Flight Safety Australia article in September 2002, which was re-printed from an AOPA article.
Sure, the peak engine revs are perhaps a third of the Tre, but basically, it says, "Don't baby your engine during its break-in period"
Find it here at Engenia's Web Page (plus a couple of pix)
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Re: Breaking in an aircraft Engine

Okay, you have lead me onto another question now then!

You say the bike revs out at the limiter set at 13,000?

Okay then , why could I not get mine through 11,000?

I found this highly suspect as the tacho seems to feature much higher numbers, but the bike would never go any where near them!

Oh and before you all break into a cold sweat shaking your heads, THIS WAS TRIED AFTER THE FIRST ENGINE HAD BEEN RUN IN, NOT ON THE CURRENT ENGINE!

By the way the bike, as far as I know is completely standard, nothing has been modded at all - I haven't had the chance to yet!

Andy

Cheers for the input guys, very interesting reading.
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Re: Breaking in an aircraft Engine

Andy, John is talking about his race bike!

You can program the rev limit to whatever you like, if you have an Axione or Tuneboy. You may void your warranty if you do it though.

Standard is 11k, but John has told me it is still pulling when it hits the limit - which is a real problem when you're expecting it to accelerate, and it just stops - so he raised it.
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Re: Breaking in an aircraft Engine

Aha, no worries, so as long as I keep the bike for another 18 months (if I manage to sort out all the problems) then I will be looking at a tune boy to tweak it. At the moment I am happy with it, as long as the problems can be sorted!

Andy
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Tuneboy

Worthwhile having the Tuneboy regardless. I bought one just so that I could access the error flags. I had the injector light come on (my fault, not the bike), and the Tuneboy is able to tell me exactly what was going on. I'll add TuneEdit later so that I can create custom maps.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Re: Tuneboy

I just checked out this tune boy. Theres a UK site too. I emailed so fella in Australia and he replied real quick regarding running these in the UK, how I can map them etc and sent a pic of the dyno which shows a good improvement in the upper bhp and torque. The blokes name was Wayne from tuneboy.au and after answering my questions regarding this in the UK I'm def gonna run one of these over a PC3, it seems all benelli, triumph and aprilia would benefit more from one of these as of their sagem units.

Anyways thats my thought on the matter!

:p
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Re: Breaking in an aircraft Engine

Interesting read TobyChi. Very similar to aircraft.

When I left Ringwood, Victoria, with 15k's on the clock, I headed straight for the Black Spur - 40 k's away. I now wish that I had thrashed it a bit - but everything was unfamiliar, so it was probably best I didn't.

(That night I had 549k's on it, and had discovered the Wombat Ranges [Mansfield-Whitfield]. Oh joy.)

I guess I'll have to wait for the first re-build to do it properly, but the first ride was pretty decent.
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Re: Back to the Initial Subject Matter!

Oi you lot, stop hijacking my thread!

Back to the topic that started this thread, my bike has finally gone back to the kind people in Cologne, who have looked after me since my bike was exported to Germany.

Dropped it off this afternoon, hopefully they should sort it out for me, but I did tell them to take it out and get the thing warmed up properly before trying to figure out what is wrong with it, told them to put 40/50 k's on the clock and make sure it is sorted for the spring that isn't too far away!

After all them putting on 50 k's mean 50 less for me to have to run the thing in!

Here's hoping!

Andy
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Re: Back to the Initial Subject Matter!

not trying to hijack your thread... perhaps the breaking in process described in the link provided in my last post would be useful to you... with your current bike or with your future bikes.
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Re: Back to the Initial Subject Matter!

Toby, that was an attempt at humour, so I hope you never took offence to what I wrote!

As for this run in method, that is what I have normally done with bikes, however, with this one I have treated it with kid gloves, for fear that it will all go wrong again!

A friend who works at Crescent Suzuki told me when I picked up my SV1000S to 'Just ride the Bloody Thing!' That is exactly what I did, gave it loads in all gears, low, mid and high rev range, the only thing I was warned about was holing it at prolonged high revs.

I ended up doing a few mods myself, including Pipercross air filter, race cans, PC111USB etc, and then got Crescent to set it up on their Dyno, end result was my bike was the most powerful SV they had tuned on their Dyno, and it was only 1/2 a horse shy of a £2,500 tune that another friend had done to his by JHS in Bristol!

The 'run it in hard' certainly didn't do the Soozie any harm whatsoever!

Andy
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Re: Back to the Initial Subject Matter!

I got so emotional... really pissed off at you Andy :D

I understand how you would want to treat your Tre "with kid gloves." I did, too... for its first 200 miles... Regardless, did you ever get the issue resolved? Is it still troublesome around 4K-5K? Hmmm... mine is okay in that rpm. as a matter of fact the throttle felt pretty linear. This is my first fuel injected bike... but would it have anything to do with elevation level? I'm riding at sea level. warm, about 75F.
 
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