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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Please tell me if im on the right track here.......

Hi ive read so much on idle setting that im totally confused. I know that the 1130 come with a manual adjuster that alters the butterfly opening correct? if so by adjusting the butterfly opening you would be also altering the tps off zero correct? Thus you would be starting to work your way up the fuel mapping table as well correct?

It seems to me that if you adjust the idle via the screw you would have to get you tps recalibrated back to zero so that the walbro thinks it is at idle and not at partial throttle opening or under load when at rest and thus allows the stepper to intervene to stop stalling.

I dont know how the walbro works but surely the stepper still has a role to play with the idle control in regards to cold start and trying to keep idle fluctuations at a minimum. The stepper acts as the choke mechanism right? and theoretically should only play a small part at idle once the bike has warmed up.

Thus the rich running of 1130s once they have warmed up must have very little to do with the stepper but mainly to do with the fuel and ignition mapping at low rpm. As once the bike has warmed up the stepper should be at a nearly closed position.

What i would like to know is if you turn the throttle screw all the way off so that the butterflies are totally shut on the throttle body and thus the tps is at zero can the stepper take care of the idle on its own? is it meant to take care of the idle on its own or is it there to assist in the sense that the butterflies are meant to be partially open and the control valve helps keep idle?

I might have confused you but i am confused! Please help!

I just read in the manual that the stepper controls the minimum functioning (is that idle speed)?

ANYHOW AT THE END OF THE DAY WHAT IM TRYING TO GET AT IS
1.THE STEPPER MEANT TO CONTROL AND SET THE IDLE ON ITS OWN WITH THE BUTTERFLIES TOTALLY CLOSED
2.ARE THE BUTTERFLIES MEANT TO BE ADJUSTED OPEN TO SET THE IDLE RPM AND THE STEPPER HELPS INTERVENE TO MAINTAIN IDLE

Why the hell would they have an adjuster there if the first scenario was true? This is what really confuses me


Please any comments are welcome im just trying to understand how the system works.
 

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Hi steven,

Thats a good point I never thought about, when I fitted the Q-D can to my cafe racer my tick over went up a bit so when it was at normal operating temp I re-set with the manual adjuster, when I was checking the fueling (using Tuneboy) I noticed the TPS was off zero (easy to re-rest at fully closed and fully open).

I could try winding the manual adjuster and see if the TPS zero moves when doing it (I will need to conect to the laptop to do it)
 

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The TPS is adjusted with the throttle bodies closed to set a relationship between the tps voltage and the zero or closed throttle position so what the idle speed is set to should not be important.

But having a second look through the manual I now feel a bit confused on the relationship between idle, stepper & tps.
Does the ecu reset the TPS calibration on starting or is it fixed and only changed during a tune up?

EFI used to be so much simpler in the old days :)

Mike
 

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Steven,I understand what you are saying. The 900 with sagem ecu is set with throttles shut as complete as possible. The stepper will be on 35 steps approx on idle if this is the case. The stepper maintains the set idle via instruction output from ecu. If the throttles are set open slightly and the throttle is reset to 0, the stepper will be open less than the correct 35 approx. If this is how it is set it will run crap. I have read the 1130 manual and the stepper is set to about 15 if I remember. My method would to close throttles as close as poss reset tps to 0 and see what the stepper is at idle, if 15 ok, if high open throttle valves slightly and the stepper will be open less. The stepper is still maintaining idle if it is open at all. The idle adjuster is a mod and I can not see why you should need it as it can only act like opening the throttle slightly ? I suppose it may be of use if you need to warm up a couple of pies on the top of the engine !
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
I really thank you guys for your imput. Firstly i don't know if te computer does reset the tps every time you start the bike, i would not think so.

Secondly thanks collin for clarifying it. So let me get this right on the 900 the stepper does all the work but on the 1130 the butterflies might need to be set along with the stepper doing some of the work.

Maybe collin the second system as on the 1130 is preferable as you would not have to adjust or monitor the stepper which can be a pain apparently with the 900 in tuning with axone. But instead the stepper can remain constant and all you would have to do is adjust the idle knob and reset the tps to get it right. Im not sure on this but i cant for the hell of me figure it out why they would have an idle adjuster then.

I honestly believe the second system as on the 1130 is preferable. If the idle was set higher than the recomended speed on the 900 the stepper would be out of value. Where as on an 1130 all you would have to do is adjust the idle knob reset the tps and bang you should have your new idle with a stepper that is within its normal operating tolerances of 15 steps.

I still believe that the stepper has nothing to do with the bike running rich once it is off idle whether it is a 900 or a 1130.
that is solely the problem of fuel mapping.

So i am left to believe that what is actually happening when people are taking their tnt/tornado to the dealers is that the mechanics are seeing that the stepper is out of adjustment or not working and then when they use the axone to set the thing they are taking fuel out at idle or downloading a new map issued from benelli that is fixing the issue.

Now if it is a 900 and the stepper is not working at all the bike would not idle correct as its soley dependent on it for idle. Although on the 1130 i think that what might be happening with the stuttering that people are experiencing is that the stepper may be jammed shut and thus the bike under closed throttle is running really rich and flooding the cylinder so when you go to accelerate it flat spots and blows a heap of fuel out of the exhaust. The bike does spend lots of time at closed throttle eg when coming to lights and braking or coming to a turn. This is the only logical theory i have come up with as to why people are getting that stuttering and myself at part throttle. Needless to say that the fuel map is probably not the best as well.

Gee i wish they could come up with a better system than a stepper motor to control idle fluctuations. maybe this is a shortcoming of the benelli running an open loop system all the time and not a closed loop with an oxygen sensor. I only wish i could afford to run a motec system on my bike.

Please tell me Collin if this sounds right. Im just trying to get my head around it so i know how it all works.
 

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Just to add some more confusion to the mix ...
I recently synchronised my throttle bodies using JohnnyO's method - bypass screws 1 turn from closed, then adjusted the sync at the butterfly shaft.
I found that I had to adjust the sync just above idle, 'cos if I didn't, it would go out of sync from just off idle to 3000 or so.

(What I think I need to do, to get it right at idle as well, is to tweek the bypass screws slightly. A few iterations would probably do it)

Anyway, without touching the ECU, the idle was higher than normal when warm, and MUCH higher than normal when cold.
It also would stutter on idle (when warm) at intervals, nearly die, then carry on for another 20 secs, and do it again. I noticed that #1 was coughing back when it did this. ( I can't explain that)

I then hooked up the Tuneboy, and found the Stepper was set at 7 (have no idea what it was before I sync'd her), and the Throttle position was at 1.1%

I adjusted the Stepper to 30 (warm) & found no change - still idled fast & stuttered regularly.
I then reset the TP & bingo, idle back to where it should be, and stuttering reduced (it still does it, but not as badly).

So ... by setting the bypass to 1 turn, I fooled the ECU into raising the idle speed. This, I think, is what will happen on the 1130, with a mechanical idle adjuster. If you adjust it up, then reset the TP, the idle will fall back down again. Is this what you guys with 1130's have found?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Ill give it a go but i think the crucial thing you did there was to reset the tps. If the tps is reading anything but 0 surely the computer would not think the bike is at idle but under load, thus there would be more fuel going to the engine and thus the rpm would be higher (cold start increase in idle is triggered by the engine temp sensor) and the stepper would not be getting involved at all to stop the surging. what you would have found is that by reseting the tps and setting the throttle plates to where they should have been you got the idle just about right and the ecu now knows it is at idle and can control the idle with the stepper, also help reducing the surging at part throttle from built up fuel in the cylinder.

Please anyone tell me if this does not make sense i am a novice just trying to get to terms with the walbro ecu. Im trying to figure how the system works so that i see how things like surging and poor running can be related to bad settings. Hope i am not confusing but drawing peoples attention to the issue to see what they have done and i thank you engenia.

From what i have seen and learnt so far i would on an 1130 syncrho the butterflies then would warm the bike up disconnect the stepper adjust the idle knob till it was about right say just short of the 1350 rpm (im assuming this is the idle setting or is it 1250) then once that is done reset the tps connect the stepper and check the reading on the stepper and adjust the idle knob up or down using the last stepper reading as a guide (thank you Collin). Then i would reset the tps and do it all again till the stepper was right.


With Euro 3 there is no way known benelli would be able to release this bike with it burning real excessive ammounts of fuel at idle so there should be no need to adjust the fuel trim at idle the barometric pressure sensor would adjust it for altitude levels.

Surely benelli would have got the fuel and ignition mapping right from the factory for the bike and thus there should really be no need to adjust the fuel parameters to get the idle right. one thing i have learnt is that don't touch what ain't broke work with what you have replaced till all options are exhausted. so i would tinker with the stepper if that failed and reset the idle control knob because we all have to admit everyone has played with that and altered where it should have been from factory.

As for 900 owners i just don't know the stepper apparently control the idle on its own so i would just check its operation by testing it and then syncro the butterflies close them to the fully shut position and reset the tps so the bike knows it is at idle so the stepper turns on and does it job.

Please i really would like to hear more comments on this it really is helping.
 

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STEVEN. the 900 sagem ecu is meant to be on 35 stepper steps on idle, for good running i found the throttles need to be balanced,closed as much as they can,throttle position sensor must be at 0 or reset if not. If the valves are open more, the stepper will be required to be open less say 20. Now you can alter the adaptive stepper setting to 35. This does not actually open the valve, but it is a ref point(this is a bit diff to describe) What happens when you open the throttle is the stepper also opens to fully open.When you shut off this ref point is used to open the stepper valve at a set revs as the revs decrease. I found that when set like this (as manual) you will get surge and horrible cutting in as revs fall. If set as above but throttles shut as much as poss the stepper will naturally be on about 35 and all will run sweet.
Now if 15 on the walbro ecu is idle point i would assume the throttles would need to be slightly more open than the 900. The stepper moves all the time.
Remember if you set the throttles the tps is fixed to the r/h body, so if you move it the tps will need reset. Tps out of sync will cause bad running as you are in the wrong part of fuel map.
PS Errol, it sounds like you may have the throttles open a bit as stepper only slightly open. Hope this might help a bit, but I am not very good at explaining and it takes me hours to type this out !!;)
PPS. If the stepper stuck shut then it would cause rich bad running at idle.
PPPS. Setting the throttles can be a bit tricky, so I would not do unless you are totally confident and sure they need adjustment.!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Colin thanks dude!

My new 1130 tornado has been a total dissaster from day one batteries,flooding, running rich down low, exhaust glowing red, broken tail light and the rest! I would hate to think that the stepper on a brand new bike is already shot to bits.
 

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I know this thread is very old, but I have the same problem in not knowing how the 1130 with Walbro should be set up for idle.

Like Steve wrote - are the butterflies supposed to be fully closed for idle for a Walbro?
The manual is really odd as it says to balance the TBs, which implies they are not fully closed.
It then says to adjust with the bypass screws then fully close the bypass screws = weird to do an adjustment with them, then close them completely.

Is fuel adjustment minimum just idle fuel? The Axone shows this as carburation.

Looks like both CO and carburation limits are 1.99 down to 0.1, but I don't know if they add or subtract.

Steve - did you sort it and what settings did you use to give me somewhere to start.

Richard
 

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I know this thread is very old, but I have the same problem in not knowing how the 1130 with Walbro should be set up for idle.

Like Steve wrote - are the butterflies supposed to be fully closed for idle for a Walbro?
The manual is really odd as it says to balance the TBs, which implies they are not fully closed.
It then says to adjust with the bypass screws then fully close the bypass screws = weird to do an adjustment with them, then close them completely.

Is fuel adjustment minimum just idle fuel? The Axone shows this as carburation.

Looks like both CO and carburation limits are 1.99 down to 0.1, but I don't know if they add or subtract.

Steve - did you sort it and what settings did you use to give me somewhere to start.

Richard
Bump - surely someone has had to set up from scratch.
 

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I am a bit stunned/whatever that nobody seems to know the answer(s) to this.

I found a French Benelli forum and used a translate function to get it close to English.

Well close enough to be able to follow the recommendations on how to get this "thing" to start/idle without using the IACV.

Too late to try now due to noise - HA HA - I wish there was some noise !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So in the absence of any other info, should the spark plug caps (called nibs apparently) be fitted or not with the Tech Auto coils?

I just fitted them and the coils do not get any where near seating in the head.

I am so glad this is not my bike and I wish I had never offered to help a mate.

The second it runs, I will be advising him to sell it for whatever he can get.

I would not buy it for $1 at the moment.
 

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I know this thread is very old, but I have the same problem in not knowing how the 1130 with Walbro should be set up for idle.
Like Steve wrote - are the butterflies supposed to be fully closed for idle for a Walbro?
Closed.
Use a 5mm wide strip of paper - thin as you can find - like EFTPOS roll paper (0.04mm).
Adjust the butterflies so that they all grab the paper.
The manual is really odd as it says to balance the TBs, which implies they are not fully closed.
It then says to adjust with the bypass screws then fully close the bypass screws = weird to do an adjustment with them, then close them completely.
Fully close the bypass screws, install your vacuum gauges into each of the lines to the IACV.
Start it up and balance the throttles as near as you can get just using two bypasses. The bypass on the throttle with the least vacuum won't be touched.

You CAN get the balance perfect If you adjust the butterflies, but don't. All you will do is raise the idle revs and lose control over the fuel mixture. You'll probably end up with a bad case of spit-back.
Is fuel adjustment minimum just idle fuel? The Axone shows this as carburation.
Yes. Past idle the map takes over.
Looks like both CO and carburation limits are 1.99 down to 0.1, but I don't know if they add or subtract.
I don't often bother checking the CO, or the associated Air Fuel Ratio. Adjust it until it runs smoothly without spit-back.
Then check the stepper count. Get it within the specified limits (30 - 40 on a Sagem) by adjusting the offset.
You'll probably have to play with both the mixture and the stepper offset to get it running smoothly, at the specified idle revs and within the stepper limits.

As far as I can tell, setting up a Walbro controlled engine is the same procedure as a Sagem one, it's just the stepper limits that are different.
 

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I am a bit stunned/whatever that nobody seems to know the answer(s) to this.
The usual suspects must be having a kip.
I've been lurking, waiting for someone else to jump in. Then away for a bit at the World Supers in PI.
Sorry to leave you in the lurch.
So in the absence of any other info, should the spark plug caps (called nibs apparently) be fitted or not with the Tech Auto coils?
Caps on.
I just fitted them and the coils do not get any where near seating in the head.
The original TA coils didn't fit well. I had to shorten the caps. After I sent him some drawings of what they should be like, his next batch was better. Maybe you've got some of the original batch, or he has cocked up is specs for the current batch. If you can't make them fit contact the TA guy and complain.
I am so glad this is not my bike and I wish I had never offered to help a mate.
The second it runs, I will be advising him to sell it for whatever he can get.
I would not buy it for $1 at the moment.
And THAT my dear sir, is a great way of making sure no-one helps you in the future!:doh:
 

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PS Errol, it sounds like you may have the throttles open a bit as stepper only slightly open.
Spot-on Colin. As per usual. (Even with the 7 year time slip)
The only way to perfectly balance my throttles is to adjust the butterflies. Bad idea.
They are now fully closed at idle and balanced only with the bypasses.
It's now almost a pleasure to ride in the city. Well, it's never a pleasure, but it's way better than it was.
 

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Thanks for the responses and sorry about my mini blowout.
It is so frustrating.

Supers - watched SBK and WSS yesterday with our video pass that is blocked for 1 week due to Foxtel rights in Oz.
Well worth the wait though, especially WSS.

If I could get it to start that would be step 1, to then move onto balancing, then the stepper etc.
Until then I am stuffed.
The stepper seems to be intermittent. It is not sticking at all and I have voltage at key on between pins 1 and 4 and pins 2 and 3.
Not that I know about stepper motors, but my logic would be zero after reaching the end stop, then pulse coil 1 or 2 for up and down.

It does the up to the limit stop every time, but does not always go down to expose the ports during cranking or at least that is what it shows on the Axone, but then it could be a voltage problem as the voltage goes very low during cranking. The stepper coil resistances are around 60 Ohms each, so whilst not 50 as per the manual, at least are close and the same.

The question about the spark plugs referred to the "cap" that screws onto the plug. As the new coils will not go into the head correctly with the caps in place, I guess no caps is correct.
Without caps the coils and retainer clamps fit well.
The other option here is that the caps need to be made (ground or similar) shorter as I am not convinced that the bare threaded part of the spark plug will make contact with the conical spring that connects the coil to the HT of the plug.
Enginea - is that what you meant?

Thanks for the heads up on idle and post idle.

The Walbro does not have an option to adjust the stepper, so my presumption is that the CO setting is what controls this.
Unfortunately not being able to start means I cannot run it up to temp as per the manual and adjust.
The manual does mention that both CO and fuel settings are interrelated, so it looks to be an iterative approach and both may need adjusting.
It may well be that the minimum fuel is a way of controlling cranking and idling fuel and CO is the way of controlling cranking and idling air.
Then once up to temperature the correct adjustments can be made if a CO analyser is used. I do not have access to one, so that approach is out.

I have been trying to get this back to "stock" so as to get it to start.

Oddly, the bypass screws were set at 3.75, 3.5 and 4.5 One should be zero at least, unless it was the PO's attempt to get it to run at all.

Next step will be to test to see if the plugs are sparking without the injectors connected so I do not flood/foul the plugs.
 

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If I could get it to start that would be step 1, to then move onto balancing, then the stepper etc.
If it cranks but won't start, check the safety system. Clutch switch, neutral switch, side-stand switch, tip-over-switch. Check the wiring diagram in the workshop manual.
Make sure that the TPS is at zero. If you have adjusted the butterflies you'll need to reset it.
The stepper seems to be intermittent. It is not sticking at all and I have voltage at key on between pins 1 and 4 and pins 2 and 3.
Not that I know about stepper motors, but my logic would be zero after reaching the end stop, then pulse coil 1 or 2 for up and down.
It goes up to the limit stop every time, but does not always go down to expose the ports during cranking or at least that is what it shows on the Axone, but then it could be a voltage problem as the voltage goes very low during cranking.
Your stepper seems to be problematic. When you turn it on, it should step all the way closed and continue to step to be sure it's there, then it should reverse a set number of steps to partially open the ports, and stop. If it's not doing this second bit reliably then it's sticking. It may well be sticking on the first bit, but because it steps more than actually needed, it may manage to get there.
(To step, the ECU energises both coils in the correct sequence. The sequence reverses to move in the opposite direction. There are several magnets in a stepper motor and energising the correct coil will attract a magnet towards it.)
Even when cranking, the voltage shouldn't drop below 8V. If it does, try hooking up a car battery in parallel with some decent jumper leads.
The question about the spark plugs referred to the "cap" that screws onto the plug. As the new coils will not go into the head correctly with the caps in place, I guess no caps is correct.
Nope. Caps ON. There is a small spring (or should be) inside the rubber boot that makes direct contact to the secondary coil and the plug cap. Without the cap, the spring waves about in mid air and a spark must jump across the gap then again across the plug gap. You don't want a gap outside the combustion chamber.
Without caps the coils and retainer clamps fit well.
Might feel right, but it isn't.
The other option here is that the caps need to be made (ground or similar) shorter as I am not convinced that the bare threaded part of the spark plug will make contact with the conical spring that connects the coil to the HT of the plug.
Engenia - is that what you meant?
YEP
The Walbro does not have an option to adjust the stepper
THAT I didn't know.:spank: I assumed it would be the same as the Sagem, which has a stepper offset adjustment.
so my presumption is that the CO setting is what controls this.
That's the way I read it, but it seems strange to me - SOME OF THE TNT OWNERS NEED TO CHIP IN HERE -
Unfortunately not being able to start ...
Even if the stepper isn't working properly, if you have some air bypassing the butterflies, and everything else is fine, it should start. It might not run well, but it should start. If it doesn't, I'd say you have a fault elsewhere.
... means I cannot run it up to temp as per the manual and adjust.
The manual does mention that both CO and fuel settings are interrelated, so it looks to be an iterative approach and both may need adjusting.
It may well be that the minimum fuel is a way of controlling cranking and idling fuel and CO is the way of controlling cranking and idling air.
Then once up to temperature the correct adjustments can be made if a CO analyser is used. I do not have access to one, so that approach is out.
The way I read it, you adjust the idling fuel mixture to get the CO % AND the stepper position between 10 & 15. That's the ONLY control you get.
I have been trying to get this back to "stock" so as to get it to start.
See my suggestions above, re. the safety system, then check that you have fuel pressure
Oddly, the bypass screws were set at 3.75, 3.5 and 4.5 One should be zero at least, unless it was the PO's attempt to get it to run at all.
Agreed.
Next step will be to test to see if the plugs are sparking without the injectors connected so I do not flood/foul the plugs.
Sounds like a plan.
 

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Thanks for all that Errol. It was a sanity/reality check for me and you have confirmed that I am not insane, well at least when it comes to this bike.

The Tech Auto coils sent are incorrect and I have sent an email.

The dead JCI coils in the box of bits measure 18.64 from the end of the grey shroud to where the conical spring seats.

The coils ordered as IC502 from TA measure 12.35mm. There is no way the TA provided spring will compress by 6.29mm.

In all other respects the dimensions are the same.

I have seen your PDF on mods 1 and 2 to the TA coils you had, but this is not an approach I want to take for something that should work out of the "box"

Not complaining, just want to get it sorted. Maybe they are the wrong coils.

Richard
 
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