Benelli Forum banner
1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
209 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi guys,
My mechanics have asked me to forward them a list of the issues to be addressed. They said put everything down. So I'm going to forward these ones (Cafe Racer, 1600ks on the clock):

1. Injector light coming on at random. Last time I was cruising down the freeway at around 4,000rpm and it came on whilst I happened to be looking at the dash. There was no sign from the engine that anything was wrong and it appears to be running fine. The light will generally stay one for the next couple of trips, then I'll switch on the bike and it will be off again. No idea why it is coming on or off. Happened probably six or sevens times in the last few weeks.

2. Lumpy idling. Especially when warmed up. Engine constantly missing and stalling. Have to keep the idle at 1500rpm to stop this. When it misses, the rpm will drop briefly to about 1000rpm.

3. Engine "knocks". Often when it misses during idling, you can literally feel a "knock" through the frame as the whole engine shifts. Quite concerned about what this is doing to the engine.

4. "Clunk stalls". Had this twice in the last couple of weeks. Both times after throttling off as I come to a stop. A very audible "clunk" comes from the engine and it stops dead. Again quite concerned about what is happening to an engine that goes from 1500rpm or so to 0rpm in a split second. Not to mention what what the 'clunk" element is. Most likely this is a extreme case of the idle miss issue.

5. Fuel consumption. One local magazine has reported 200ks to a tank on their review CR. I struggle to make 100ks. An '04 TNT I had for a few days easily made 130ks so there's definitely something not right. Probably related to above issues.

6. Poorly fitted rear cowl. Shakes around alot. No idea why it's not fitting properly but it isn't. Should not be the case on an expensive motorcycle.

7. Seat bubbling. The vinyl on the seat is coming away from the sponge underneath. Again should not happen on a bike worth this much.

So if anyone here can add any information I should pass along - causes of, what's actually happening inside the engine, things to look at, that sort of thing. Much appreciated.

ciao
Derek
 

·
I'm firing on three
Joined
·
611 Posts
Drekka, the clunk then instant stopping, plus rough idle sounds like your running way to rich, get the tps (throttle position sensor) and air sensor (behind front screen) checked out.
I have heard of 3 TNT’s that have had the tps (made by BMW) pack up resulting in over fuelling and the air sensor (thermistor) is quite delicate, both can be tested on the bike.
vtxbrit
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
5,963 Posts
Injector light coming on at random.
Derek, I expect that the ECU is seeing some electrical fault intermittently. The first time it sees it, the injector light will come on. After not seeing the fault for several days, the ECU will switch it off. It will retain the fault codes though. You can get these by connecting up the Axione or Tuneboy. Both can clear them as well.
Fuel consumption. One local magazine has reported 200ks to a tank on their review CR. I struggle to make 100ks
Synchronising the throttle bodies may help. Made a big difference to my Tornado. Ran much smoother once balanced.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,007 Posts
I think I've said elsewhere on this site that I my 04 idled beautifully before it had the "latest" map put on the ECU. (This is the one to reduce the engine temp and I think it comes with the external fan kit). It now clonks horribly and stalls exactly as Drekka describes. As he says, something that stops an engine that abruptly must put enormous forces on the bottom end.

I understand the need for the new map to bring the fans on at a lower temp I also realise that fuelling at tickover is crucial because the bike is likely to be stationary with no air flow through the rads. That said, it seems the fuelling at these revs is now far too extreme.

A map with tickover settings similar to earlier maps but which still brings the fans at low temps would seem an urgent requirement
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
113 Posts
mapping

Hi Pike you say you had the latest map put on the ECU. Was the tps reset after the download, if not your bike will run far too rich and stall/foul plugs
The idle CO usually needs setting up also to complete the job
Hope this helps:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
209 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks for your comments guys. I've forwarded everything to the workshop. They said the other day they will want the bike for a while so they can fully test and play with it. Hmmmm, me thinks they just want to ride it ;-)

I'll get back to you with stuff as it comes to light.

:bluesbros:
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
903 Posts
Hi Drekka, here is some info which might help you.

Question 1. This could be down to a poor earth, I know of one Cafe Racer that had the indicator and high beam warning light flash on when rev'd about 6000rpm. After a long search the problem was found to be poor earthing were the fuse holder is. (Left side of bike under carbon cover.) As Engina states, if this not the case the fault code will be saved and can be identified when attatched to an Axone machine.

Question 2,3,4,5 Is definately poor synchronisation of the throttle bodies and low idle combined with the TPS. This can be cured by using the Axone machine and a CO meter to re balance them.

Question 6. Standard on the Cafe Im afraid. This can be cured by fitting a rubber sleeve to the hook at the back of the cowling, this not only makes for a tighter fit but stops the thing from rattling as well!

Question 7. Not heard this one before, sounds like just a case of poor workmanship and should be replaced under warranty.

Hope this is of some help for you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,007 Posts
So if we think it isn't the map but the set up of the throttle bodies / tps, can anyone recommend someone who is good at setting them (UK). Since mine has just come back from Red Dog and runs like an Old Dog, I guess I need another name
 

·
I'm firing on three
Joined
·
611 Posts
Pike, if you are ok with mechanics then here is an accurate and cheap method of synchronising throttle bodies……………………………remove tank and airbox, then get a thin feeler gauge ( say 1.5 thou .038mm) cut it in half width ways so it’s thin and long.
Now put it between the throttle body and the brass butterfly (right in the centre) of NO 1 throttle body…… adjust the idle screw until it just nips the feeler between the butterfly and body (so it’s a nice sliding fit), now put the feeler in the NO 2 throttle body and adjust the sync screw (not the preset air screw) until the butterfly (no 2 body) is the same sliding fit as the no1 body move the feeler to NO3 body and do the same…………………go back to the no 1 body and check then no2 then no3 when you are happy that they all feel the same then your throttle bodies should be virtually spot on.
Re-adjust the idle screw to give a 1500rpm idle speed.
While the airbox is off Check the stepper valve moves freely, then re-assemble airbox etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
209 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hi all,
Just had a phone call from the mechanics. The plan is that in a couple of weeks time a technician will be coming down from the importer to spend some time with them. I understand they are going to be working on getting a better understanding of servicing Benelli's and other workshop related stuff. My mechanic suggested to the importer that they use my bike as a test case for the day and they loved the idea. Apparently they were already aware of it (from this forum ? who knows ;-) ) and some of the results may find their way back to Italy as well. I'll grab as much information from the day as I can get and post it here.

So for now I'm hanging tight (and still riding) until this is finalised.

ciao
Derek
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,007 Posts
VTXBrit

Thanks for the info - Just like balancing carbs on my old '73 Trident. Do you know how I can check that the tps has been set properly - Is it in the workshop manual as I have a copy on disk somewhere.

As an aside, it occurs that I had engine work done at the same time as having the new map (which came with the fan kit) I may be ascribing the tickover issue to the map when it could be set up as you say. Presumably someone must have had the new map fitted without engine work? What were their impressions? I'd be very interested to hear before I buy a Power Commander and attempt some incompetent fiddling!
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
5,963 Posts
here is an accurate and cheap method of synchronising throttle bodies…… then get a thin feeler gauge ( say 1.5 thou .038mm) cut it in half width ways so it’s thin and long.
Now put it between the throttle body and the brass butterfly…… adjust the idle screw until it just nips the feeler…
Haven't heard of that one before. Probably half reasonable though.
Have you used a differential manometer? Have a look HERE.
I've also used the plug short method - listen for the amount the revs drop. Hard to do on the Nelli though. Apparently some ECU's have the facility as a diagnostic.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
209 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
VTXBrit
... before I buy a Power Commander and attempt some incompetent fiddling!
Personal opinion here and I've never seen one in action (So take this for what it's worth!) but I'd be very wary of a power commander. The reason I say this is after talking to a number of people (including mechanics) about them, I would be worried that they mess with things too much.

My understanding is that a PC basically sit between the ECU and the bike, filtering and modifying the instructions the ECU is giving the bike. So basically the ECU tells the bike to do something, the PC then changes those instructions, which then means that the bike does something else and therefore the information coming back to the ECU as a result is going to be different to what the ECU expects.

My concern and the reason I've never bought one, is that if things start to go wrong, it's another major point of failure and just adds to the difficulty of trying to diagnose the issue.

If you want to start doing this I'd suggest looking at something like Tuneboy. Again I haven't used one so I have no expertise to base this one. The difference is that Tuneboy doesn't add to the electronics. It actually remaps the ECU using factory codes. So there's nothing new to cause problems. Unless of course you stuff up the map ;-)

ciao
Derek
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
As far as power commanders go i,ve used them on several Japanese bikes with good results when used to smooth out power delivery, rough idle, can and filter swaps etc. I'm going to try one on my TNT asap. I'll post up results as soon as i get them.
 

·
I'm firing on three
Joined
·
611 Posts
Derek, I run my 05 TNT with a power commander and I personally find it runs better with it than without it.........you are right about the pcIII modifying after the ECU, however remember that the Benelli doesn't run closed loop this means the ECU knows the position of the throttle (via the tps) it knows the ambient air temp (via the thermistor) and it knows the revs (via the tacho)…….. (these are the main sensors) but it doesn't get any actual feedback concerning whether or not the bike is running rich or weak you would need an oxygen sensor (lamba) fitted to the bike to give this information back to the ECU ( to close the loop)
So by putting a unit in (like the pcIII) that can be adjusted to change fuelling values after leaving the ECU will work (that’s not to say that the tuneboy is better or worse).
you will see in the pcIII fitting instructions that bikes running lamba’s like Honda normally require the lamba to be bypassed so that the pcIII doesn’t confuse the bikes ECU, also remember that the pcIII only mods fuel (excluding fitting a pc ignition module) I think most of us have to agree that the TNT’s run too rich in the lower rev range and need either the actual ECU reprogramming or an external device like the pcIII or tuneboy to be retro-fitted. Also the tps zero value (with the throttles fully closed) can be reset within the pcIII software to further help tuning.
terry
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
903 Posts
So if we think it isn't the map but the set up of the throttle bodies / tps, can anyone recommend someone who is good at setting them (UK). Since mine has just come back from Red Dog and runs like an Old Dog, I guess I need another name
Have you told any one at Red Dog? I have had my Benelli and MV serviced by them and never had any problems, I also know of other owners that have been pleased with their service. Give them a call and tell them its still running rough, after all if you don't let them know they won't know!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
209 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Last Friday my TNT CR went into the workshop for a Benelli day with the mechanics, importer's techos and several other local TNTs. They stripped it naked :rolling: :rolling: fiddled with everything, tested everything and generally had a good time (mechanics version of :ele: ).

The news was good. The reason I was consuming so much gas and having constant issues with missing and stalls was that a tiny valve in the fuel lines which acts as the choked on the TNTs by richening up the fueling, was not working and had been turned on all the time. Effectively resulting in the bike running with the choke on 24/7. So they've put in a warranty claim and that will be fixed soon.

They also loaded a brand new map they just got and so far ...... what a difference ! Not more missing and stalling.

They told me that compared to the other TNT's they had there for testing (and playing with) mine was under-powered (due to the fueling issue) so once the valve is replaced I should see a vast improvement in the bike overall. Woot !

Finally on fuel: They asked me about what fuel I had been using and I said that I preferred BP98, but over the last month or so had tried just about everything to see if fuel was having an impact. They showed me a stack of full fuel containers and fouled sparks they had taken from a number of bikes in the last few weeks. At the moment there is an issue with Shell 95 causing a lot of warranty claims, effecting the fuel pumps if I remember correctly. I asked then what they would recommend and they said that their opinion was that Mobile Synergy 8000 was the most consistent and reliable fuel to use. So now I'm using that.
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top