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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hit a roo the other week, leaving the left front of bike with a gaping hole. After a recent rainstorm, Nell began to run on 2 cylinders sporadically. Turns out it's the left pot that is intermittent. Mostly she's fine, but generally at startup, she coughs and splutters a bit, backfires a couple of times, then runs smoothly on all 3. Occasionally she'll do it while at speed.

Changed the left plug today, hoping it was the culprit, but, alas, it was not to be.

What do you reckon fellas? Ignition coil?
 

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What did the plug look like bud? If it looks normal then the cylinder should be firing as normal. Have you tried swapping a coil round to another cylinder? I Havnt got at my plugs yet but am assuming that the plugs have seperate coils for each plug?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Plug looked pretty much normal. I didn't bother testing it. If they're intermittent, you can never see the fault anyway. Turns out, it was operating fine. The fault's elsewhere.

Haven't tried swapping the coils - yet. (They are separate sticks) It takes me 1.5 hrs to go through the whole procedure, so I was trying to cut out an iteration, if possible!

The coil looks fine, but then again, I've got one of BBA's dead coils, and it looks fine too - it's definitely open circuit though.

(It only just occurred to me, that I should have checked the continuity of mine while it was out.:doh: )

I guess the question really is ... has anyone had similar symptoms, and found the coil to be at fault?
 

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Errol, fingers crossed no probs with my Tornado.

But had probs with my Laverda SFC1000, turned out to be a faulty ignition module (Witt). The Witt system has a fault diagnosis setting which causes the system to fire continuously, hence allow it to replicate a 'heated-up' system. Would hope that Benelli have a diagnostic setting.
For that system you take all 3 plugs out and earth them e.g. on the cyl head, then leave system firing for an hour. Using *insulated* gloves/pliers lift the plugs slowly 1 at a time off the head to see what distance it requires to break the arc. This will identify a weakness.
Once the weakness is identified, swap over the HT leads to see if that replicates the fault on another plug, then to swap over the low voltage signal leads to see if that can move the fault. Obv each time the system is restarted and run for an hour.

A lengthy process but worked for me in revealing a weakness in the unit, that defied other means of fault finding.

If the Tornado system has this type diagnostic setting then thats the way forward. If not then apologies for wasting time LOL
 

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Coil

I bet, it's coil or there are water causing mis fires.
Have had same kind of problems with my nelli.

Go on and buy Peugeot/Citroen coils and mod them. Cost only 45 euros here in Finland and takes 10 minutes work time.

W: Pekka
 

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I'm firing on three
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Errol,
You can't really tell if the coil is faulty with a meter, this is because it is usually the secondary coil that goes (that’s the HT side) and metering across the coil connections only test's the primary side.
Although you can resistance test the secondary windings by metering the centre HT pin and the plus connection on the primary side you have to know the manufactures exact resistance figures to compare...........to be honest it does sound like the dreaded stick coil problem from your description.
Good luck mate.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Errol,
You can't really tell if the coil is faulty with a meter, this is because it is usually the secondary coil that goes (that’s the HT side) and metering across the coil connections only test's the primary side.
Although you can resistance test the secondary windings by metering the centre HT pin and the plus connection on the primary side you have to know the manufactures exact resistance figures to compare...........to be honest it does sound like the dreaded stick coil problem from your description.
Good luck mate.
BBA's dead coil is open circuit on the HT end. I had checked one of mine some time ago, and it was connected. I agree though, measuring resistance is not enough. I was thinking maybe of driving the primary with a volt @ 100kHz, to see what would end up at the secondary. That would give me the turns ratio. Which would be useful if it could be re-wound. I expect it is potted though, which would make rewinding impossible.

I'm organising 3 Peugeot coils to be sent from aepdirect in Glasgow (www.aepdirect.com) - £94.00 GBP all up, inc. shipping. (No VAT).
The local Peugeot dealers want $120 ea. If it dies completely, I might have to suck it in and bite the bullet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
I've had BBA's dead coil a year now, and have just cut away the top section to see how it's put together.

(They don't call me Speedy Gonzales for nothing.
Actually, no-one calls me Speedy Gonzales. Apparently for good reason.)

Believe it or not, the 3 slots in the top could provide a pathway to the windings, depending on how well the manufacturer pots it.

In the case of BBA's coil, and a stack of others, I'm betting, it was open clear through! When I got down to the centre iron core, it was rusty. I'm sure it wouldn't have been assembled that way.

If you look at the picture where the 2 copper (primary) wires disappear down into the body of the coil, you'll see that it's not sealed. In fact, if you blow into the base of the assembly, at the plug end, you may find that air will escape from the top! BBA's dead coil did exactly that. So, any moisture that enters by the top slots, will find it's way down this "pipe". In fact, it won't just "find" it's way, it'll be DRAWN in, whenever the air inside the coil cools & contracts. So moisture MUST find the secondary coil and cause a lot of trouble.

Correct me if I'm out of line here, but the manufacturer of this product should be exposed for their incompetence!

My advice? I can't think of any reason why the coil needs to be vented, so seal up those slots. That's where the dampness is getting in, and that's what's causing them to fail.
 

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Sealing it cold and then waiting for the air to expand when you heat the engine up may cause trouble.

You need to glue on a strip of goretex :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Sealing it cold and then waiting for the air to expand when you heat the engine up may cause trouble.
The base of the coil stick isn't sealed, so it's not going to pressurise and cause problems. It's a pity the whole thing isn't potted - to exclude all air. I can't think of a way of doing it. You'd need to put it in a vacuum chamber, and get it to draw potting mix up into the voids as you let air back in. Not easy.

As it stands, with the top of the stick sealed off, as air pressure changes in the plug well, the pressure will release past the bottom and top coil stick seals. It's better for moist air to go down the outside of the coil, than through the middle of it!

My original coil sticks are sealed at the top with tape. BBA's didn't have any, and neither did the Peugeot replacement.

I replaced that #3 stick Sunday, and rode it Monday. It's much better, but not perfect. I wonder if I've got yet another intermittent one :(
 

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Our Magnetti Marelli ones have a 3 pin amp connector on top and no obvious way for air to get in and out other than through the bottom, so sealed ones are out there.

The problem with changing make of coils though is that the current drain and dwell times range drastically for stick coils. (Our race coils need 10.5A each).

To that end if you bought 3 of the new type then I would change all 3. At least they will then fire the same all the time.
 

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Parts from AEP Direct

Hi Guys,

I'm also having coil problems - and having read this site and Enginia's site -- I've gotten 3 new Citroen/Peugeot/Renault coils... 1 from a Local Dealer (a supposed Renault one), and 2 from aepdirect.com in Glasgow..

however -- they are slightly different..

The one from the local Dealer looks exactly like the picture on AEPs website - even down to the box it comes in.

The two from AEP are slightly different -- (I'll try to get some pictures later) - but instead of the top being plastic with 3 rectangular holes around the sides -- this one has a horseshoe ? shaped top - which is filled with some kind of epoxy ? and has no holes -- so probably a better / preferable design ??

I've not tried doing anything with them yet -- but hopefully tonight..

According to AEP they have been getting a few orders of late - one possibly from Enginia ? so thought you might be interested !

I've ordered another from AEP just to ensure I have 3 of the same type and avoid any previously noted Dwell issues ?

T
 

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Aaron, where do I find details on your Magnetti Marelli coils?
Data Sheet

Just check that the Sagem ECU can deal with grounding that current (check the primary resitance on the old ones).

I have complete dwell tables for these coils somewhere on the laptop (as supplied by Marelli Race Dept). Our marelli ECU allows the dwell to be set for various voltages, I doubt Tuneboy and the Sagem give you that flexibility, but perhaps Im wrong. This does make a difference as our biked backfired like a bastard until we set these up (and thats only going from stock Ducati coils)

Are the windings fully potted?
Our bike wasnt designed for stick coils and the rubber end kept getting stuck down the plug hole so we got to see the exposed lower end of the coil loads of times and I dont remember seing anything other than the conical spring that snaps over the spark plug.

Unfortunately we are in a mid race gap, and with my brother in Italy sunning himself I dont have access to the shop to get in to have a closer look.


The Marelli's will be pricey, do you have a data sheet for the originals ? If so then it may match one of the Nipon (honda CBR/VFR) or Delphi (Yamaha R1) units.

Aarron

PS. Ive just looked at your website, does that french guy cutting up a "matching" peugot coil know that PBTF GF20 isnt the coils serial number, but the type of plastic the cap is made of (Poly Butylene Terephthlate with 20% glass fibre mix) :)
 

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Hi Guys,

This stuff is mostly meaningless to me -- however -- Aaron mentioned Delphi or Nippon coils -- and the 2 coils I've just purchased from AEP are marked Delphi.

Here's all of the details incase it's of any interest :

(From the side of the car mount part -- since there are no numbers, etc on top of the epoxy'd part on top)

9663278480
BAC ES9A
DELPHI
19005337
ALL-CEM-01

one has 17M71 stamped into the plastic and the other 13M71

also -- From memory of using TuneBoy / TuneEdit -- I seem to recall it does show the Coil Dwell time in the Diagnostics section -- but I'm not sure you can do anything to change it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
.. do you have a data sheet for the originals ?
Thanks for all that mate.
No data on the coils, I'm afraid.
This is my first problem with the Valeo coils - after nearly 50,000 km. So I'll persist for now. We don't get a lot of rain around here, so having coils susceptible to moisture is not such a great problem. That said, I'll be happier if I see the new ones coming from AEP, are made better.

Ive just looked at your website, does that french guy cutting up a "matching" peugot coil know that PBTF GF20 isnt the coils serial number, but the type of plastic the cap is made of (Poly Butylene Terephthlate with 20% glass fibre mix) :)
Probably not. I certainly didn't.
Do now though.
 

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This is my first problem with the Valeo coils - after nearly 50,000 km. So I'll persist for now.
Even though Im not precious about it my bike rarely goes out in the rain, (Ive got 3 others for that) but on its last trip it got drowned. You know that point where the rain starts bouncing off the floor and starts to look like your riding through a pond.

Its now been in the shed untouched for 3 weeks so it may, or may not, start on three :) Having said that its not the first or last time its had serious rain time, and every wash is a jetwash, and no problem so far.

There you go thats fate tempted.
 

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AEP Coils,

Hi Guys,

Tried modding my coils last night -- and one problem I discovered -- is that because the top of the coil is a different shape, the little metal bracket which is supposed to fit over the top of the coil and keep it held down, does not fit.

Not sure what I'm going to do about it at the moment...

The coils on my 02 Triumph Daytona were not held down at all .. but occasionally one of them would pop up out of it's hole - presumably because of air/vapour heating up in the plug well and pushing it out - so I guess I'd like them to be held down one way or another.
 
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