[kawiman]

Hello Marco,

welcome to the topic! Good to hear that there are more big Velvets around.

I drove a Benelli Velvet 400 from 2007 and with pros and cons I'm sure to say that is still the fast scooter (and the best for me) for little moving, expecially in the city! Never today exsist a better one!!

I totally agree with you.

I broke the chain guide some week ago

How did you recognize that? Did you hear something strange noise?

I've also ordered a complete gaskets kit for the engine on eBay, because i don't know if next week my mechanical will able to put it without open the head cylinder...I've make some photos, i will post them...

OK, thanks. Maybe you read, that Jeroen is currently working on the same problem (which is clearly the weak point if this engine) and I am also planning to make the conversion in the future so it will be good if we can share our experiences.

But the question is if anyone know a good radiator that can be a good substitute to the original one, or adaptable, because it's not possible to find it anyway on the web, i've also contact Benelli, they say me that it's out of stock from 2008...I understand now because on my scooter it's mounted the 150cc's one and i get from this too high temperature for the engine (the original one it's much more bigger, 30% plus minimum). For the moment i've done 15.000 km, and I want to drive for anothe 15.000 km without blow up my engine...

Well, as far as I know, there are even two separate radiators located in front of the engine. There is a bigger one (which I assume the same as on the 125/150/250 cc Velvets) and there is also a smaller one below the bigger one next to the central stand (the photo was taken from the rear right side of the engine, sorry for the poor quality):

I could not find any used parts on the EBay at the moment, but there are always bikes for sale (also in parts) on the Italian websites.

I had a leakage on the smaller radiator (the previous owner knocked it against a pavement), but I managed to buy it from second hand from a broken bike. It costed around 18€. Not sure what the bigger radiator would cost.
I also bought an original cooler fan, but it turned out that it is much smaller than the one I had on the bike, so I added the second one by mounting it simply on the right side of the radiator perpendicularly (because there was no space left) and now I do not have any problems even in summertime in the city traffic.

 

[Namleppa]

WOA Mark, you have 2 radiators?!
I saw that in my engine description from the Malaguti Madison K400 but i thought because the Velvet is so small the removed one.
I only have 1, the bigger one.
Maybe someone removed it because of the aftermaked exhaust.

Welcome City17, nice to see some other enthousiast!
I only have one radiator and it works fine, really no problems, no overheating, nothing.. So i'm sorry but i can't help you with that.
Try and search on eBay | Tecnologia, moda, fai da te: prodotti nuovi a prezzo fisso and Electronics, Cars, Fashion, Collectibles, Coupons and More | eBay and Elektronik, Autos, Mode, Sammlerstücke, Gutscheine und mehr Online-Shopping | eBay for Malaguti Madison 400 parts. Same engine, more parts.

I noticed the oilfilter of the velvet is the same as the Burgman so i've ordered 2. They are from Malossi.. TUNING! (not..)
Engine is completly assembled and almost ready to start. Oil was really really clean and only 800km old. So ive decided to keep it and don't change it.

Today i will try and get my tensioner welded. I also need to make a bracket for the inginition cdi something. (the little round part with your sparkplugcable on it.)
This part was first connected with a tie-wrip. So it didn't had any "ground".

I guess i need a new battery though, too bad, expensive.

I'm really curious of the kit you've ordered CIty17.
If it works correctly i might do it too.

If this welded tensioner works i might keep it that way.

For now, 2 small pics of my cilinder (it's in pretty darn good shape!)

I've also made a new exhaust tip so it doesn't have any DB-killer.
Maybe it will be a bit too noisy.

Regards,

Jeroen

 

[Namleppa]

So i wanted to share some pictures with you that i took this afternoon.

Im sorry if you see something bad or ugly.. Previous owners were not that kind for this nice little motorscooter.

So this is my benelli in it's current state. As you can see, al the fairing is taken apart. I will keep it this way until i know that it runs properly.

This is my only radiator. I had to change one hose because it was leaking and i only had a "see through". It is kinda nice because you can see if it's full or not, but it also looks kinda cheap.

I have changed the fuel lines with nice one. I really like them but they are pretty expensive.

This is the end of my exhaust and the custom made "mouthpiece".

Carburator

New springs from an agility 16 125cc i believe. They are from YSS and pretty cheap to buy. Like 80 euros for the pair.

new golden brake caliper. Really hard to find!

And the part that i would like to powdercoat.. Too bad i haven't got an gasket.
If I ever have to take it off i guarantee it will be powdercoated!

Have a nice week!

Regards,

Jeroen

 

[City17]

Re: Radiator

How did you recognize that? Did you hear something strange noise?

I was lucky that i'm going not so fast, at 50 km/h, I herd a metallic sound from inside the carter and I slowed down with two or three little hit of throttle to control that the engine can still accelerate, after 400m I stopped the scoot and I turned the key. After some minutes I tried to start the engine, but the self-starter turns with no effect, and I realized that I broke something...

Well, as far as I know, there are even two separate radiators located in front of the engine. There is a bigger one (which I assume the same as on the 125/150/250 cc Velvets) and there is also a smaller one below the bigger one next to the central stand (the photo was taken from the rear right side of the engine, sorry for the poor quality):

When I bought it from an official Benelli dealer my scoot was new and had only a one big radiator in the classic position in front of the engine in vertical position, but in only 6 months I broke it 2 times, because, for me, it was made of poor material... After the last time I waited 6 months to see my scoot back from assistance, in that period Benelli was sell to a Chinese Company and had some problems to sent any material for assistance... At the end the smoller 250's radiator was mount on my scoot and I began to have too hot temperature, in fact until now I can't go outside the city for long travel for this reason, I heard someone told me the modification with 2 radiators, but I never try it and I never see that before!
Now I'm certain to solve this problem once and for all with the assistance of my mechanic, I want to put another radiator like in your scoot kawiman, I have to find out a good radiator with right size and try to fix it below the original one.

I have some questions for you kawiman:
- do you now if there is a supplementary water pump (electric maybe) between the two radiators? Or they are connected only with simple water pipe...
- the two radiator are in parallel or serial?
- the water tank is the original one?
- can you make some photos where I can see how the second radiator it's fixed on the scooter, or a photos of the second radiator only (maybe the old one)? I want to look at the size and buy a similar one...

Thanks!

Marco

 

[City17]

Some Photos

This is my Velvet a little bit open!

This is the chain guides that I've bought directly from Malaguti official store and the instructions...
The material of the guides is different from the original ones, now is made of hard plastic and there isn't metal inside, the form is different, it looks like that fills better inside the carter, you have also to remove a little piece of rubber that before needs the low guide...

Here with chain guides mounted, you see them through the holes, the mechanic mounted them without open the head cylinder, does it means very cheaper and faster substitution, instead of open all the engine...

This is my actual radiator, I have to put a second one, this is not enough! :bawl:

I bought new Brembo brake pads! Someone tolds me that sintered type are the best for this kind of scooter and for the way I use it...
And also an Iridium Candle for better combustion!

Bye!

Marco

 

[Namleppa]

Hi Marco & Mark,

Nice pictures, looking good.
I'm very curious on how the new parts perform. If it works good i would love to have the connection to the dealer for the same part.
For now, i have my tensioner welded and i will be up and running next week.

Do you also have the stock exhaust like Mark has?

And if you have some spare time could you make a picture of your engine from above.
There's a pin going from left to right (from the frame trough the engine) (really hard to explain, my english isn't that good)
And mine doens't look that stock, it seems like it has some "extra parts".

As you may have noticed there is a lot of oil. The hose wasn't connected properly. That issue is now fixed.

I couldn't find any info about it on the internet.

Regards,

Jeroen

 

[kawiman]

Hello guys!

You were awesomely active, sorry for not replying quickly.

In fact, I had a little incident.
Just after I posted the reply to Marco about the 2 radiators of my scooter and reading that Jeroen also has one and had no problems at all....
That's the irony...
The next day we had a properly hot (28 degrees Celsius) afternoon and as I commuted from work homebound, I recognized, that the temp gauge is near the red line. Due to the fact, that I was in the middle of the heaviest traffic, I had to cross it first and reach a fuel station, where I tried to figure out the reason. No suspicious water spots under the scooter and also the fan(s) was (were) working, but I heard some bubbling noise somewhere from the cooler radiator. After squeezing the radiator hoses lightly it seemed that there is still enough coolant in the system, so I went on and tried to get home. Again no problems, beside the unusual high temperature.
After letting the thing cool down I checked the coolant tank and refilled it: almost 1 liter of mix could be filled in.
I was certainly curious, so next day I also took the scoot to the work, but then I saw, that the engine oil level window is covered with light brown foam, which is not a good sign at all... yes, the coolant got into the engine oil.
The engine itself works well: no strange noises, or any other sign for a failure. However this problem must be fixed, though,
Unfortunately, I am quite busy nowadays, so cannot progress with the repair as I would like. Every evening I have a half an hour for that, which then would take some days just to cover up the reasons.
As it looks now, there could be more root causes:
- blown cylinder head gasket --> in my opinion that is the most probably option (and hopefully one of the cheapest)
- burst cylinder head --> that would be a "bit" more expensive
- faulty water pump sealing/shaft --> this would be another cheap option

Ironically, I bought the bike with a leaking lower radiator and also the fan was stuck - however there were no problems despite of this bashing.


Of course if I remove the engine, I will check the cam chain tensioner too.
Marco, thanks for the info. Did you order the parts directly from the Malaguti webshop?
As far as I could figure out (with my very poor Italian knowledge and the help of Google translate) they ship only to Italy, do they?

I will try to reply your mails now.

 

[kawiman]

When I bought it from an official Benelli dealer my scoot was new and had only a one big radiator in the classic position in front of the engine in vertical position, but in only 6 months I broke it 2 times, because, for me, it was made of poor material...

Well, the material of the radiator is very thick, as I mentioned, the lower radiator leaked at the previous owner and I think that was the reason.

After the last time I waited 6 months to see my scoot back from assistance, in that period Benelli was sell to a Chinese Company and had some problems to sent any material for assistance...

This is upsetting... I also went to the official Benelli dealer but they told me, that they are selling no longer parts for the scooters which were manufactured when Benelli was still in Italian ownership

- do you now if there is a supplementary water pump (electric maybe) between the two radiators? Or they are connected only with simple water pipe...

No pump, just a simply water hose connects the two:

- the two radiator are in parallel or serial?

They are connected serially: the lower radiator connects both to the thermostat and to the upper radiator. The upper radiator then connects to the water pump cover as well as to the coolant tank.

- the water tank is the original one?

No, but it is of the same type: the original one was slightly burst, so I replaced it against another one which I bought together with the replacement lower radiator. Both look original and are from a Velvet 400.
Never mind the mounting of the cooler fan, though. It is seemingly not original, because mine had a bigger fan fitted before (now I think to have the original one).

- can you make some photos where I can see how the second radiator it's fixed on the scooter, or a photos of the second radiator only (maybe the old one)? I want to look at the size and buy a similar one...

Please check the photos above and below. Sorry, they are not in one group, but i hope you see the infos you need. When I remove the engine, I may make another photos from the inside. If you need any specific details, let me know and I will take care of it.

Mark

 

[kawiman]

Sorry for the dirty bike: I caught a heavy rain some days ago and did not have the time to clean the thing. (it will be necessary anyway before I open the engine)

 

[kawiman]

Hi Jeroen,

So i wanted to share some pictures with you that i took this afternoon.

Im sorry if you see something bad or ugly.. Previous owners were not that kind for this nice little motorscooter.

Not like mine, eh? Yours look pretty nice and it shows that the current owner (you) is really taking care of the details.
Thanks for the pics!

View attachment 11090
This is the end of my exhaust and the custom made "mouthpiece".

What kind of can do you have? GPR? 4 Road?

New springs from an agility 16 125cc i believe. They are from YSS and pretty cheap to buy. Like 80 euros for the pair.

I am also trying to get cheap part sources. As you may know, the engine was licensed by FYM (Chinese manufacturer) who are then sold different China-made bikes (Sachs 400, Italjet Marco Polo) with almost the same engine. I am continously searching the web, but to no avail...



View attachment 11094

And the part that i would like to powdercoat.. Too bad i haven't got an gasket.
If I ever have to take it off i guarantee it will be powdercoated!

That's my plan too! Nice.

Have a nice week!

You too!
Regards
Mark

 

[kawiman]

Sorry guys for the typos, there were a lot of them, I was in a hurry.

Finally, a pic of the oil filled with coolant (taken right after arriving at home).

 

[Namleppa]

Sorry guys for the typos, there were a lot of them, I was in a hurry.

Finally, a pic of the oil filled with coolant (taken right after arriving at home).
View attachment 11177

Ah men, that doesn't look good. Coolant can't harm the engine, so that's possitive.
I guess your head gasket is destroyed. It is available at Athena Parts. I can send you a link if you want.
I ordered there and they were pretty fast en it was really well packaged!
I would also order 2 (maybe 3) base cilinder gaskets because they are only around 5 euro's. Headgasket is a bit more expensive (around 20 euros)
I can give you the specific torque needed for the bolts in the cilinder and stuff.

Regards,

Jeroen

 

[Namleppa]

Not like mine, eh? Yours look pretty nice and it shows that the current owner (you) is really taking care of the details.
Thanks for the pics!

Thank you very much. Well to be honest, i think all 3 Benelli's look pretty good. Only really enthousiastic people will make such an effort to keep the engine running.
I'm also a bit sad that at this particular moment 2/3 benelli's are completly taken apart haha!

What kind of can do you have? GPR? 4 Road?

It is an Leovince 4Road. Full stainless steel. I noticed a pretty big dent in the first curve (near the cilinder) so that's pretty sad.

I am also trying to get cheap part sources. As you may know, the engine was licensed by FYM (Chinese manufacturer) who are then sold different China-made bikes (Sachs 400, Italjet Marco Polo) with almost the same engine. I am continously searching the web, but to no avail...

Maybe we can join forces and send all our sites in a message on this forum.


For now..


I have assembled the engine yesterday. The new chain tensioner seems to do its job. The accu was near to dead so i have to replace it.
It had a spark and enough compression. Too bad that the sparkplug didn't smell like petrol. So we took it apart and clean all the jets. (We is: me Jeroen and my best friend (also engineer) Sam)

I'm kinda doubting if my carburator is okay and if my timing is correct. There isn't any mark on de crankshaft, only on the camshaft. That makes it a bit hard to time correctly.
Any thoughts?

Today it's 32 degrees Celcius (305 Kelvin / 89,6 degrees Fahrenheit) so i highly doubt it that i will do some work this afternoon haha.

Have a nice weekend both!
Regards,

Jeroen

 

[kawiman]

Ah men, that doesn't look good. Coolant can't harm the engine, so that's possitive.

Yes, that's right, but on the long run it is not the most advanced lubricant, though So tomorrow I may have a little time to take a look at the engine.

I guess your head gasket is destroyed. It is available at Athena Parts. I can send you a link if you want.
I ordered there and they were pretty fast en it was really well packaged!

OK, I would appreciate that. (not sure where the thing comes from, so that the shipping costs are also important)

I can give you the specific torque needed for the bolts in the cilinder and stuff.

You mean the ones in the Malaguti manual?
Do you have some stuff for the Benelli (so not for the engine but for the other parts)?


Have a nice weekend!
Mark

 

[kawiman]

Ah men, that doesn't look good. Coolant can't harm the engine, so that's possitive.
I guess your head gasket is destroyed. It is available at Athena Parts. I can send you a link if you want.
I ordered there and they were pretty fast en it was really well packaged!
I would also order 2 (maybe 3) base cilinder gaskets because they are only around 5 euro's. Headgasket is a bit more expensive (around 20 euros)
I can give you the specific torque needed for the bolts in the cilinder and stuff.

Regards,

Jeroen

Thank you very much. Well to be honest, i think all 3 Benelli's look pretty good. Only really enthousiastic people will make such an effort to keep the engine running.
I'm also a bit sad that at this particular moment 2/3 benelli's are completly taken apart haha!

We're not dead yet

I have assembled the engine yesterday. The new chain tensioner seems to do its job. The accu was near to dead so i have to replace it.

Are the starting problems over then?

I'm kinda doubting if my carburator is okay and if my timing is correct. There isn't any mark on de crankshaft, only on the camshaft. That makes it a bit hard to time correctly.
Any thoughts?

An excerpt from the Madison manual:
"MOVE THE PISTON TO THE TDC.
POSITION THE SHAFT WITH THE
CAMS FACING THE OIL SUMP.
THE REFERENCE MARKS ON
THE CAMSHAFT CORRESPOND
TO THE FLAT SURFACE OF THE
HEAD."

Today it's 32 degrees Celcius (305 Kelvin / 89,6 degrees Fahrenheit) so i highly doubt it that i will do some work this afternoon haha.

I can image that, I also had to take the car to work in this weather (the other bike is also under construction, so it's a pain for sure... )

Bye
Mark

 

[Namleppa]

Yes, that's right, but on the long run it is not the most advanced lubricant, though So tomorrow I may have a little time to take a look at the engine.


OK, I would appreciate that. (not sure where the thing comes from, so that the shipping costs are also important)

Here's the link to the headgasket:

Cylinder Head Gasket - Cylinder Head Gasket » Athena Aftermarket Division

This is a link to all the parts the have for Malaguti Madison K400

Maxi Scooter Malaguti Madison K 400 / Restyling » Athena Aftermarket Division

You mean the ones in the Malaguti manual?
Do you have some stuff for the Benelli (so not for the engine but for the other parts)?

I have a PDF from the Malaguti Madison 400. This is a document where they take apart the whole engine with all the right specs.
I do have a Benelli Velvet 400 book at home but that's only with text about how the motorscooter works and where you can find everything. Some sort of owners-manual i guess.

Regards,

Jeroen

 

[Namleppa]

Yesterday i took the engine apart (again....)
The timing was indeed off! It was only just 1 "sprocket-tooth"? so no damage to the engine.
After that it still wouldn't start.
Checked compression, spark, fuellevel in carburator etc.
Sparkplug didn't smile like patrol after a couple of minutes trying to start him.
So there's deffinitly a problem with my carburator.
After checking some videos i knew that i was missing 1 part so i have to order that..
Regards,

Jeroen

 

[kawiman]

Hello,

yesterday I wrote a longer post which seemingly has not been saved and then got lost

So I try to reproduce it now in a shorter version

At first about the marking of the TDC. It seems that there is a mark on the flywheel to determine the exact position at the TDC.
However this mark is quite invisible:

The reference point is the small lug inside the ignition cover, you can check the position through the small second check window located on the rear side of the cover:

I hoped that it can help, however I just saw, that you already found the right position.

Anyway, finally I had the time to take a look at the engine, so I removed and disassembled it. Everything went really well. Although I did not have the appropriate tool for the removal of the flywheel (needs 28 mm inner threaded puller) nor the water pump (which requires a 12mm allen key), but these were not the main targets of the investigation.

The good news is that the engine itself seems to be in a really good condition despite the everyday bashing this bike gets. All the cams, shafts, honing of the cylinder wall, etc. are OK. Even the surface of the piston was really clean, so I was surprised and of course veeeery happy

The other good news is that the well-known plague spot, the cam chain tensioner/guide combo was also intact. Although they are still the original (black) ones, no sign of cracks or other damages could be seen. The only thing I noted was a very small dent (i.e. a small circle, about 0.3 mm deep) caused by the pressure of the plate of the chain tensioner cartridge, but it did not look too bad and AFAIK this was already visible some 20000 kms ago.

The whole engine is covered with the light-brown milky oil/coolant mixture, which is annoying, but can be helped with.

I registered on the Malaguti webshop but soon I lost the thread, because I could not find out whether they ship outside Italy and what the shipping cost would be (there is a calculator for it, but I could not calculate the shipping cost for other countries).
Today I dropped in to my favourite bike shop. They are mainly dealing with Japanese bikes (not scooters), but they are quite good at spare parts. So I do not really expected anything, just took a chance and it turned out that they have every gaskets what I need. They are also quite cheap (around 18-19€ for cyinder head gasket, 2,8€ for the base gasket, etc.). Unfortunately they make orders weekly and for this week they already sent it, so it will take around 10 days to get it, but nevermind. I also plan to replace the roller cages of the engine mount and the small stem seal of the water pump just for the safety sake.

Regards
Mark

 

[kawiman]

Hi Jeroen,

Here's the link to the headgasket:

Thanks a lot! I hope that the ones I ordered today will arrive soon and thus resolve the gasket problem.

I have a PDF from the Malaguti Madison 400. This is a document where they take apart the whole engine with all the right specs.

I think I have the same. It is really good (with some minor errors) and useful.

I do have a Benelli Velvet 400 book at home but that's only with text about how the motorscooter works and where you can find everything. Some sort of owners-manual i guess.

The same at me.
What I additionally have is a part list manual with microfiches for the Madison 400. Literally all the parts (including the engine) are listed with their respective exploded views. For me it is also an essential document, especially when ordering:
http://malaguti.ch/fileUpload/downloads/241/R0069 MADISON K 400.pdf

On the Swiss Malaguti website there is also a price list. It is from 2011 and listed in Swiss Francs, but it still can be useful, because many standard parts (bearings, etc.) are listed with their respective measures, so that you can find an alternative if you want.

Regards,
Mark

 

[kawiman]

Yesterday i took the engine apart (again....)
The timing was indeed off! It was only just 1 "sprocket-tooth"? so no damage to the engine.
After that it still wouldn't start.
Checked compression, spark, fuellevel in carburator etc.
Sparkplug didn't smile like patrol after a couple of minutes trying to start him.
So there's deffinitly a problem with my carburator.
After checking some videos i knew that i was missing 1 part so i have to order that..

which part is missing?
In the part list I mentioned in my previous post all the carburettor parts are there, so you can check them.