[mikerj]

It does sound like the ECU is possibly dead unfortunately. When in an idle state both the RX and TX lines should be in what's called a 'Mark' state, which is a voltage from -5v to -15v (to meet the RS232 specification). It sounds like the RX input to the ECU might be shorted to ground, though this is pretty unusual since RS232 line drivers are typically quite robust devices.

If you completely unplug the wiring loom from the ECU, and on the grey ECU connector measure resistance between pins C2 (Rx) and A7(Diagnostic ground) do you still get close to 0 ohms?

Were you using the laptops on battery power? If you have a charger connected to the bike battery and a charger connected to the laptop there is a small possibility for circulating earth currents to cause problems (if both chargers are grounded).

 

[WikingTNT]

It´s the stand alone relay on left.

I dont remember if the pump primed i`m sorry.. and the relay is glued in place so I dont want to release it

 

[Punch]

It does sound like the ECU is possibly dead unfortunately. When in an idle state both the RX and TX lines should be in what's called a 'Mark' state, which is a voltage from -5v to -15v (to meet the RS232 specification). It sounds like the RX input to the ECU might be shorted to ground, though this is pretty unusual since RS232 line drivers are typically quite robust devices.

If you completely unplug the wiring loom from the ECU, and on the grey ECU connector measure resistance between pins C2 (Rx) and A7(Diagnostic ground) do you still get close to 0 ohms?

Were you using the laptops on battery power? If you have a charger connected to the bike battery and a charger connected to the laptop there is a small possibility for circulating earth currents to cause problems (if both chargers are grounded).

Many thanks again. I never say die and after much perseverence and thinking now have a live ECU again.
I managed to get it to go into Recovery a few hours ago, but too late here in Oz to try to fire it up.

My approach to the non responsive ECU.

Even with a charger and car battery connected, with the headlight off, I could see that the battery voltage was dropping rapidly and below the magic 12.5 V so often referred to for TuneECU.

What could be causing this? Only the ECU, tail lights on, but then thought, if the map/ECU are corrupted, then maybe the coils and injectors are being powered, as is driven to be on. This thought was in parallel with just because the battery voltage is 12.X, that does not mean 12.X is available inside the ECU due to coil and injector current drain through internal resistance of the ECU PCB tracks or whatever.

Disconnected all of them and whilst the battery voltage dropped, it was still above 12.5V

Clicked on ECU then Connect and got the failed connection or whatever message, hit cancel, then clicked on ECU and lo and behold Recover was now an option with the message to turn the bike off and connect the bridging (download) connector.

Joy of joys it went through the recovery process.

BIG NOTE - the on screen instructions say to turn off the bike and remove the bridging connector.
I did not do this as every TuneECU guide page says in bold red words for the Walbro ECU to unplug this connector before turning the bike off, which is what I did.

Now I have an ECU that appears to be resurrected.

Still with the coils and injectors disconnected, at key on I can hear the stepper go through its motions.
No fuel pump prime, but that is a secondary issue having hopefully revived the ECU. This might be linked to things not being connected.
Oddly, no FI light with coils and injectors disconnected, but again a secondary issue.

Bottom line, it looks like there is hope yet and tomorrow will be the next phase of reconnecting injectors and coils to see if they are now off and hence not pulling the voltage down.

Answering the notebook/laptop question - I always run the Macbook, hosting XP, or the Vista notebook running on batteries with computer and display sleep options set to never.

I measured the Tx voltage from the computer and it was -5.5 or so, but I was so happy it was restoring I did not want to frig with things.
More than happy to measure though later in the interest of providing info.

Richard

 

[Punch]

It´s the stand alone relay on left. View attachment 12214

I dont remember if the pump primed i`m sorry.. and the relay is glued in place so I dont want to release it

If your pump is not priming, then you will never have fuel available to be injected, so the bike will never run.

 

[mikerj]

Many thanks again. I never say die and after much perseverence and thinking now have a live ECU again.
I managed to get it to go into Recovery a few hours ago, but too late here in Oz to try to fire it up.

That's great news, I bet you are feeling relieved

 

[Punch]

That's great news, I bet you are feeling relieved

Well a lot happier than I was with no connection at all.

A number of times it ran for a few seconds starting from 0% throttle, then died.

During the moments it is running, the stepper is showing 11, then looks like it drops to around 2 and 4 before stalling.

If I could get it past idle it popped and farted and ran really roughly, as though it is too lean, then stalled.
I am guessing the IACV is doing this.

Checked the butterflies are balanced and then set them for the hundredth time with the piece of paper method of just being able to pull it out.
Reset TPS after that.

Now it won't start at all and the stepper is not moving. It does its rise to close test but does not move down now, so no air!!!

Are there alternatives to having the IACV control starting and idle, like unplugging it and opening the butterflies a tiny amount?

It all seems astoundingly sensitive to start and idle.

I am wishing I never touched this bike.

 

[mikerj]

I'm wondering if you have a completely separate problem, e.g. duff TPS or simmilar? I've only worked with the Sagem ECU and whilst it is quite sensitive to setup it's not anything like that bad.

Also double check the coil and injector connectors are clicked onto the correct devices, I managed to swap two injector connectors over on mine and it ran pretty roughly.

 

[Punch]

Sorry if this is hijacking a thread, but responding to questions and comments.

Coils and injectors are connected correctly. Injector leads are pretty much limited on where they can reach from the harness. Coil leads are similarly limited, but are marked with ring labels.

I have checked the TPS voltage via TuneECU and Axone and it is smooth, so no apparent "noise" due to a faulty TPS.
Too late at night here, but I will need to use either kit to watch TP during the couple of seconds it does run.

The super weird thing to me is as follows for this 2009 TNT 1130 Sport.

Totally wind off the idle adjuster on this model so the butterflies are as closed as can be.
Using the sliver of paper method, the paper will not pull out - ever - jammed in, so they are totally closed.
TPS reset to zero.
Bike starts and the stepper works. Idles for a few seconds then dies.
The stepper is moving up, so closing off air, which I presume is trying to lean off the mixture to make it idle higher, which is what lean mixtures do.

Next - set it up in the way I have read it should be done.
Wind the idle adjuster so the sliver of paper just pulls out, so the butterflies are open by a poofteenth.
Reset TPS to zero.
Bike will not start and the stepper does not move at all.

As I wrote in a previous post, is there a way to set up start/idle with the stepper unplugged?
My albeit old (2001) EFI Ducati has a simple idle lever, akin to a choke lever, but is not a choke to enrich mixture, that simply holds the butterflies open as much as required to start and idle at X, Y or Z RPM wherever the "fast idle" lever is set.

This is all with the bike connected to a car battery which is also connected to a battery charger to keep terminal voltage high.

Just thinking whilst typing - the exhaust flap valve is wired open, as is the airbox flap.
I can't see the airbox flap playing a part as the IACV inlet port is small, but maybe the exhaust flap is closed during cranking/idle.
I will put a multimeter on the flap solenoid to see if a closed signal is sensed during cranking.
Maybe even just reconnect the airbag flap as that will be very obvious and of course unwire the exhaust flap valve.
It would seem odd though as so many posts in other threads state it only operates at 3500 to 4000 RPM or so to meet emission and noise tests.

Is there anything that can be done, when cold because it will not run up to warm conditions to set CO and then check/set the stepper position?

The map is the stock TNT 101 that should be in the bike.
It comes up as 10108 from memory on the Axone.

 

[WikingTNT]

If your pump is not priming, then you will never have fuel available to be injected, so the bike will never run.

My bike is working allright - just trying to figure what relay you seem to be missing and tried to explain what relay caused my problems.

 

[Punch]

My bike is working allright - just trying to figure what relay you seem to be missing and tried to explain what relay caused my problems.

All my relay sockets have relays in them, so it is not a missing relay.

It is just setting it up to get it to idle, which it will not do as per my last post.

I find it weird that butterflies totally closed and it will idle for a few seconds with the IACV working, but looking like it closes causing the stall.
Then butterflies slightly off totally closed and the IACV does not function.

When the valve works the suction is high. I wonder if the butterflies should be slightly more open, but that is not what people here have written.

More searching I guess.

 

[Engenia]

The stepper is moving up, so closing off air, which I presume is trying to lean off the mixture to make it idle higher, which is what lean mixtures do.

The idle speed is grossly adjusted by the IACV, but fine control is done by spark advance. At least that's how the Sagem does it. From memory, as the revs drop the spark is advanced to raise it.

 

[mikerj]

The stepper is moving up, so closing off air, which I presume is trying to lean off the mixture to make it idle higher, which is what lean mixtures do.

Not quite, the ECU controls mixture by varying the injector pulse width in combination with the estimated amount of air in the cylinder. Air load is estimated by looking at throttle angle/stepper position and engine RPM (the Sagem and Walbro ECU use an 'Alpha-N' fuelling strategy and can not actually measure air load).

There are two ways for air to enter the cylinders, via the throttle butterflies and via the idle control valve. On the Sagem at least, the table used to estimate air load via the idle control valve is not accessible by TuneEcu, but the Idle CO Adjust and stepper offset adjust can be used to trim the idle mixture. Another important parameter that is not accessible via TuneEcu is throttle body leakage, i.e. the air load that comes through the throttle body (via butterfly leakage and and balance adjusters) at idle. This parameter will be greatly changed by setting the butterflies either fully shut or by using a bit of paper to set them slightly open.

The ECU controls the stepper position as a coarse idle speed adjustment. From the new stepper position, engine RPM, idle valve air map (hidden) and throttle body leakage (hidden), it knows how much air should be entering the cylinders and therefore how much fuel to inject. If any of these calibrations are incorrect, the fuel mixture will not be calculated correctly and the error can change considerably as the stepper changes, something I discovered when trying to fix a stalling/back firing problem on my RS.

It's possible that as the stepper closes, the fuel mixture is becoming either excessively rich or weak and stalling the engine, and this does tie in with the sensitivity to the butterfly closed position. The fact that it won't even start with the butterflies very slightly open (higher TB leakage) suggests it's running much too lean.

First check the obvious,

1) Are any vacuum hoses (especially between the idle valve and throttle bodies) disconnected or split, and are the throttle body to head rubbers in good condition? Any air leaks will increase the amount of air entering the cylinder and the ECU won't know about it, so the mixture will be lean. An air leak will naturally have greater effect as the idle valve closes.

2) Is the idle control valve in good condition, i.e. no burn marks on the plunger or plastic housing and the plunger moves up and down freely. If the idle valve gets stuck, the ECU won't know so will continue to adjust fuel delivery as though it had moved,

3) Is the coolant temperature sensor working correctly, i.e. is TuneEcu showing a realistic engine temperature value? A cold engine requires a much richer mixture than a hot one, so a bad coolant temperature sensor could cause difficult starting.

If that all checks out, you might just have a CO trim that's miles out (as I did) but without some way of measuring exhaust CO or oxygen any adjustments made are at best an educated guess. Make a note of the original value and try adjusting it. On the Sagem at least, increasing the value makes it richer. You might need to adjust it quite a lot to see a difference

 

[Punch]

Thanks for the details. I wrote the bit you quoted arse about. It would make it richer assuming the fuel was the same (alpha-N), however you have written about a hidden start fuel table.

I have found that the bypass screws are wound out 3 to 4.5 turns, which may well account/contribute to the lack of idling. Earlier on I pulled out the IACV to inspect/clean. It looked OK and moves freely. The control connector was severely corroded, which I cleaned up. Unfortunately I do not know if it was functioning before this.
I can borrow some vacuum gauges and make up the T pieces suggested so the IACV still controls idle. I have not seen a value for vacuum at idle.

Clutching at straws now, I am wondering if the bypass screws were so open so far to compensate for a poorly operating (if at all) IACV and now way too lean because it works.

I reconnected the air flap and exhaust flap solenoid and noticed that during cranking, this was opening and closing.
I need to adjust the exhaust return spring as it it is only returning half way.
This seems a little odd to me, given that disabling these is a common recommendation, with appropriate changes to the fuel map around 4,000 or whatever.
Also, on the very first use of the Axone and before I touched anything, TP was sitting at 16% closed. Again maybe an attempt to richen it.

Coolant sensor is functioning correctly, as when it did run before fitting correct coils and breaking the fuel tank elbow, the temperature seemed correct.

Is it possible to adjust the CO setting when cold? I understood this would only take effect when the temperature was 80 or so. I have the correct range in the manual.

During the few seconds it does idle, the stepper sits at 11, which is in the range of 10-15 recommended when up to temperature.
CO is currently set at 1. I have not seen anything so far on the range of values allowed. E.g. is it say up to 2 and down to X?
As it is not running and therefore cannot measure CO, this will be trial and error, if as above, it can be changed and take effect on a cold engine.

Too many things incorrect at the same time, which is why I am trying to get it back, including settings, to stock and go from there.

 

[mikerj]

Is it possible to adjust the CO setting when cold? I understood this would only take effect when the temperature was 80 or so. I have the correct range in the manual.

It should be adjusted when fully warm, since this the at point at which you want an accurate AFR. With a cold engine the AFR target value will be much richer. I can't say for sure it still takes effect when the engine is cold, some experimentation would be needed to confirm this either way.

I just fired up TuneEcu and loaded a TNT map and I see there is a "Global Inj correction" value which sounds interesting. The Sagem doesn't have this, maybe a knowledgeable TNT owner can tell us how this should be adjusted.

During the few seconds it does idle, the stepper sits at 11, which is in the range of 10-15 recommended when up to temperature.
CO is currently set at 1. I have not seen anything so far on the range of values allowed. E.g. is it say up to 2 and down to X?

I can only speak for the Sagem. My CO trim started at a value of something like +30 and I had to wind it back to about -30 to get the AFR correct. However, I welded a sensor bung into the exhaust so I could use a wideband sensor to set it up.

As it is not running and therefore cannot measure CO, this will be trial and error, if as above, it can be changed and take effect on a cold engine.
Too many things incorrect at the same time, which is why I am trying to get it back, including settings, to stock and go from there.

Just a thought, does the engine have to be running to be able to perform a TPS reset like it does on the Sagem ECU bikes?

 

[Punch]

AFAIK there are a few differences in the way the Sagem and Walbro ECUs work and can be adjusted.
They use different values in some cases, so a value in Sagem does not apply in the Walbro.

TPS on the Walbro can be set with the bike on and not running, same with setting WOT.
It does not have the 20 second "learning" requirement of the Sagem.

Yes there is a global injection correction for the Walbro. The Axone shows this as carburation, so I guess is the translation that Benelli used to refer to fuel.
The manual makes entertain reading in places where odd English words have been used, but with some lateral thinking I can work out what they should be!

The manual does not have anything on the CO setting nor global injection correction values.
The only thing is that the stepper should be between 10 and 15 when warmed up.

 

[Punch]

I think I have worked out why it will not idle.

Looks like the IACV plunger (plastic version) is getting stuck and when it goes through the self test it rises, as it should, then should back off/down.

I think back off/down is just unscrewing the drive shaft from the plunger, which means it is not controlling idle at all as it is not connected anymore to the plunger.

As I have a lathe, I will turn up an aluminium version to replicate the plastic version.

Probably will anodise it, as per updated version, as I have DIY stuff, as in power supply etc. and simple chemicals/solutions, from zinc plating parts from my ongoing 1964 Lambretta restoration.

Just need some lead and sulphuric acid, which I have kicking around in the shed.

Fingers crossed.

 

[JJdeHaan]

Hello, I read a lot off information about Tune Ecu, with walbro, sagem ecu....
I resently buy a 2012 TnT1130 Century Racer butt this have the Altena ecu
So can works tune Ecu the latest version also with Athena Ecu??
I have many problems with my bike and would like to check it with Tune Ecu and I have to buy and wait for the cable set I need for the downloaded Tune Ecu software butt can this work with Athena
ecu?

 

[StingerWolf]

No it doesnt work with Athena ecu at the moment.

Gesendet von meinem SM-P905 mit Tapatalk

 

[JJdeHaan]

No it doesnt work with Athena ecu at the moment.

Gesendet von meinem SM-P905 mit Tapatalk

Gutte morgen das sind keine gutte Nachrichten.

Goodmorning that's horrible news

Soo then I have a big problem that I can not use the cable set from maniac motors and the tune Ecu software...

So then I have to find out where I can buy a other solution to reset the tps and do other maintenance
Axone tool is not available and new 2800 euro....

I read and hear from Alex the Athena Ecu is the new walbro...
When I can not use Tune Ecu I have really a big issue...
The problem is that I don't get any new Ecu here on the island were I live and I think a new Ecu is very expensive to buy in Europe

 

[Dazz]

Does tuneboy work with Athena ecu?